Probably the Lexa 100 or Exceller EXE. Both were clunky linear mag brake reels. The Tatulas and SLX roday are much better for the same price.Originally Posted by bassfisher444
Probably the Lexa 100 or Exceller EXE. Both were clunky linear mag brake reels. The Tatulas and SLX roday are much better for the same price.
I'd say there's quite the improvement in the past decade or so. The E series Curado is a great reel that still sees some backup duty but it isn't in the same ballpark as my K series Curados. Even the I series was a big improvement over the E's .
As far as Daiwa, I am kind of torn. The T-Wing is nice for some techniques but not for others IMO. The SV spools are too heavily braked and I like some of the older, freer spools. I will say that I think the newer Daiwas are much more durable.
Spinning reels were getting pretty good 10 years ago and in the past decade have just made incremental improvements. Both Daiwa and Shimano eggbeaters are better, but more evolutionary than revolutionary.
It is a mixed bag. Comparing a $100-200 reel today to one of 10 plus years ago most of the time the modern reel will be superior in most ways. Some of the nicer and more high end reels of the past can still out do reels of today. Mainly casting distance and durability especially the ones with brass gears. Plus many will say reels of the past were simpler to work on maintain while others may say they were easy to adjust. Well taken care of reels from the past are worth the investment if they fit your style. Today’s mid to high end reels come with a hefty price tag. I fish a mix of mid to high end reels from the past and a few new models sprinkled in.
This...I can outcast my Steez A with the same Gigas spools dropped into my TD-Ito...same rods and lures. It's not a conincidence. This said, the casting ease/lack of line angle tension is better with the TWS, although the line lay is better controlled IMO with the TDZ line guide design. Today's $300 + Daiwas compete well with reels in the $200-$250 range for Daiwa back in the day, i.e., OG Sol, Alphas, Zillion, Fuego, TD-Z air metal, CVX/CVZ. Still, it takes a $500 + current day Daiwa to compete with a prior gen ~ $350 TDZ, ~ $250 Pixy, $399 Steez.
The main advantage today is gear ratio availability, lighter weights (usually due to use of plastics), LH & RH retrieve models, and SV mag braking (for good and bad)...this said, I'll take any of my tuned OG Daiwas and fish them up against any current Gens and would near guarantee that there would be little to no advantage (aside gear ratio availability) of the current gen vs the OGs. Other than Daiwa finally figuing out the $$$ to value/performance ratio that Shimano had cornered witth the CU for so many years, the Tat and their kin are no where near what the same $200- $250 OG Daiwas were back in the day. What we are seeing is an adjustment of manufacturers to compete in the market and be viable vs OEM manufacturers that have popularized other brands in rebirth such as Lews, or just expanding on their nameplate with Abu low profiles, and newer players like 13 fishing, etc. We are also seeing the Two-Headed Rising-Sun Dragons sub-contract to OEMs for their lower offerings as well.
The game is now big Corp. Business top to bottom...and all manufacturers are trying to gain loyalty from the open market starting from beginner/intro price points to mid range, to high, to ultra-high end...this has been the writing on the wall since circa 2007 when I fished the first pre-release of the Abu Revo (Doyo) S, SX, and STX. I knew that the fishing market for bass reels would forever change moving forward.
Last edited by dragon1; 12-02-2021 at 09:06 AM. Reason: Font size correction
Well put Van! Lots of cheapened down parts in today’s reels and lots more plastic/composite.
I have dozens of the e series curados, citicas, and chronarchs. I used to have several Gen 1 and Gen 2 SX, STX, and Winch Revos. I sold those Revos to buy more e series Curados.
I firmly believe the reels from that pre-2012 era are the best of durability mixed with performance.
I have one current model Curado K and one Tatuta SV TW. I only have the Curado K due to the higher gear ratio/line retrieval rate. I bought the Tatula SV TW because of dock skipping. I plan on selling the Tatula because I can skip just as good with light braid or monofilament line with my old Curados.
I sold one near mint e series curado this summer because I knew I would make money on it and keep the workhorse reels with rash in service. I plan on keeping the other e series reels until something breaks and then it becomes a parts reel for other items.
My professional background is in cnc machining and process engineerng and make a decent amount of gear/splines. I have been in the process over the last few years to try and develop/make a higher gear ratio gearset for the e series line of reels when time allows. The gearteeth on these gears are a very fine pitch which makes things a little difficult. Once I figure this out, I will only run shimano e series baitcasting reels with new gearsets.
The CU/CH E series were awesome. The CU100D was my favorite OG smaller CU frame. If you are successful in making these E series gears, will they also work in the D series? FWIW, I firmly believe that while the OG HEG was not as glass smooth as the current MM (although an Antares AR/Calais 100A is an extremely smooth reel), the HEG is much more durable and wore in better than any flavor of the current MM gears, the brass ones included.
Last edited by dragon1; 12-02-2021 at 07:35 PM.
Spot on. Some of other platforms have weaker magnets so a modern spool might seem faster in an older Daiwa. I like to have both to move a slower SV into an old Steez with weak magnets or the difficult to tame old Steez spool into a more modern Daiwa with stronger magnets. I havent bought a new over $200 in years. The used market for older reels has been too good and all the newer reels over the years have all been SV reels. While I wanted a Steez TW, the stock spool is overbraked for anything other than skipping and it has aluminum gears. Now that they are used reels in the $300 and under range, new Zillion brass gears fit and the SV boost drops in while supposedly performing better than when it is in the new Zillion I know what my next used reel purchase is going to be. Another old-ish Daiwa.
As I stated in previous post, my first baitcaster was a NIB Steez 103HLA in 2007. And, I have purchased and used almost all of the various “high-end” Daiwa reels since then and a few Shimano reels.
http://www.bbcboards.net/showthread....=#post12200064
True quantitative measurements illustrate the improvements in reel performance over 14 years that I have been using that class of reels. There is a significant difference between subjective observations/”feelings” versus actual measurements, which are consistent and can be replicated.
As an example, my Alphas SV TW 800XHL is ‘feels’ smoother (qualitative) than my Alphas 103L/Alphas ito/Alphas R-edition/Zonda 68L. While all of those reels are “smooth”, the Alphas SV TW 800XHL ‘feels’ smoother.
Quantitively, the Alphas SV TW has better casting performance than each of those other Alphas/Alpha platforms. In most cases, the casting distance is not huge, but in terms of behavior when casting there is no comparison. With each of the other reels, my thumb is absolutely necessary to achieve maximum casting distance without an overrun. The Alphas SV TW requires minimal to no “thumb action” for maximum distance.
Another example from just yesterday. Planning to use my OG Steez 100HLA tomorrow in a blade setup, so I took it to my “casting park” to make sure it would ‘play nice’ with the intended rod rather than determine while ‘on the water’ the combination does not perform as expected/desired. The combination was casting 3/8 oz. 100-110 feet and 3/4 oz. 125-130 feet consistently. The casting action was my usual one-hand, smooth motion without a “snap” at the end of the cast. My ‘thumb” had to be ‘in play’ when casting those distances to prevent overruns. This was the performance and behavior that I expect and just have to remember when picking up that combination and 'firing' a longer cast, have the thumb 'at the ready'.
To compare, I switched out the OG Steez 100HLA with a current Steez SV TW with the same rod and repeated the casting measurements and behavior observations. Distance was better, but not a major amount with 3/8 oz., with the same effort: 3/8 oz. 120-125 and 3/4 oz. 145-150 feet. Casting behavior was the major difference. Very little requirement to use my thumb and the couple of minor overruns were more “fluffing” than a ‘real’, ‘pick it out’ overrun.
While a couple of my OG reels are still in current rotation, the majority of them have been “bumped out” by the current models. Some of those OG reels have been sold with the remainder moving to “shelf queen” status.
Regards,
Doc
You are likely going to be sticking with the old reels for a while, just because the new ones are so hard to find in stock now haha.
2020 Nitro Z20 Pro Package
Reels in your hands, tuned per your specs, will achieve what you personally input into them with your casting motion and style.
FWIW, most of the OGs that perform as well if not better than current Daiwa Gen for me,with real on the water fishing....has been the OG Zillions, TDZs, Monoblock, and Z2020. OG Steez, I have an Ian tuned Steez Limited 105 with 7.9:1 brass Steez EX gears that just flat out performs, so not a fair comparison.
Still my Zillion PE with either the stock spool and bearings or IP Honeycomb spool, outperforms the Steez A with same baits and line types on the same rod. I reinforced this again yesterday on the water with a 1/2 spinnerbait, and the Zillion PE with Megabass Honeycomb IP spool consistently outperformed a Steez A for casting ease, distance, and cranking power (granted 6:3:1 vs 7.1:1) on the water. FWIW, the Zillion PE was on a shorter 7'0" LWL Supwr Diablo II and stiffer 12 lb PLine CXX, while the Steez A with a tuned Type R/TD-ito spool, and softer/thinner 30lb PP SS8 II on a Phenix Ultra MBX Classic 707MHF yielded shorter casts and less ease of casting. This same spool in the original Ian-tuned TD-Ito also outperforms the Steez A on the water. I also dropped this same spool in a TD Air Metal 103 (stock aside carbon drag) on a 7'0" MF Evola baitcastrod and it casts faster and further than the Steez A on an Evergreen 72MH EG Swimmer (which is a great casting rod) with 5/8 oz Yozuri Vibes and 1/2 Megabass Giant Dog X. The Steez A only wins in ease of line coming off the spool and less tension from line angle to the TWS line guide, along with the higher IPTs from the 7.1:1 gear ratio.
To each their own, and actual on the water real fishing many times yields better performance on the OGs versus newer platforms.
Last edited by dragon1; 12-03-2021 at 03:48 PM. Reason: Grammar
Have you fished other spools in the Steez A? It could just the a matter of the stock spool being unimpressive. That seems to be a common theme with many newer Diawas. Great platforms but the stock spool is somewhat lack luster. The new Zillion is the exception hence all the hype around it.
I have spoken privately with some hardcore tuners that say their tuned OG Daiwas with tuned spools, especially some aftermarket spools, in TDZs and OG Zillions and Steez, still outperform the current Gen Zillion spool. The casting difference in the Steez A is due to the magnets and mag braking design, not just the spool. The TWS allows for smoother line coming off the spool during the cast and minimizes the line angle "drag" coming through the line guide (in most of its positions). This is why most spools cast better in the less obtrusive Magforce V systems of the TDZ 103/105 vs the Steez A Magforce Z braking system. This said, the TWS IMO, does not lay line as well as the older TDZ line guide system...or especially with braid with a super fast line guide like on the TDX HSDF or Zillion PE.
This said, the aluminum body of the Steez A is rock solid, as is the current duralumin gear set in it, and the ergos are excellent. I'm just saying for a ~ $500 reel, it won't "blow away" a TDZ or Zillion tuned just a bit, especially on the water, at least based upon my personal experiece. The Steez A wins on gear ratio of 7.1:1 and the power/smoothness/lightness of the duralumin gears vs the older TDZ gears, although I won't say the 7.1:1 Steez A Duralumin gears are any more powerful or durable than the 7.1:1 brass OG Zillion gears.
Lots of great things about the current Steez A, and Steez TWS and Steez CT (and other variants) for sure...however, the Tatula TW (200 sized IIRC), Zillion TWS, Tatula Coastals I have owned and fished, are not even close to the OG TDZs, Steez and Zillions in my hands and actual on the water performance.
YMMV.
Last edited by dragon1; 12-03-2021 at 04:13 PM.
Many good comments and observations
While the SV Boost spool is a solid performer, casting performance with the Steez SV TW/SV Boost spool combination is less than with the Steez SV TW and the reel’s stock 1016SV G1 spool. And the difference is even greater when comparing the Steez SV TW with either the ZPI NCR001-PG and M spools.
Yet the new Zillion’s casting performance with its stock SV Boost spool is comparable to the Steez SV TW/stock 1016SV G1 spool combination and close to the Steez performance with the ZPI spool. So, the casting performance of the new Zillion is resultant from more than just the SV Boost spool.
Another observation is that the 1016SV G1 spool is s definite upgrade in the casting performance of the OG Steez 100HLA.
All of my reels, new and used, have been given my maintenance/tuning “process”, which contributes to the smoothness and casting performance.
And the “on the water” performance of each of my reels is consistent with its quantitative measurements.
Regards,
Doc
I can only speak to Shimano Curados as comparisons of old versus new are concerned. I have have Curado B and D series reels as the older version, and Curado I's and K's as the newer version. There is no doubt in my mind that the I's an d K's out cast the B's and D's I do yearly maintenance on my reels. I do everything short of flushing the bearings. I've replaced the spool bearings of my older Curados with ABEC 7 hybrid bearings, and only then has the performance of the older Curados approached the performance of the I and K series.
I do prefer the old braking system over the new SVS Infinity system though.
As far as other Shimano casting reels go, I recently picked up one of the SLX MGL 70 reels to use on my jerkbait rod. That little sucker casts amazingly. It doesn't feel quite as smooth as my K series Curados, but it isn't that far off. It's a sweet little reel.
Magforce V, Z and SV are contained in the spool. If I put a Magforce V spool in my SS SV103 then it's a Magorce V reel. There are differences in braking profile between reels even with the same spool. This is due to factors like the strength of the magnets or even how close the magnets sit in relation to the spool. In reel like the old pre TWS Steez are notorious for having weak magnets. I suspect the Steez A and new Zillion are on the stronger side. I've heard nurmours reports of the Zillion SV Boost spool performing much better in the Steez TWS SV then it does in the Zillion. I actually find that the TWS line lays much better than the big level wind in the TD-Z and old Zillions. That tiny opening when reeling in line acts like a precision line layer almost. I was bombing frogs in the yard a while back seeing which spools in what reels threw the furthest and the TWS reels definitely lay on the line with precision.
I've hear nurmours reports that that these boost spool in the Steez TWS SV outcasts the stock Steez TWS SV spool but quite a bit and even outperforms the new Zillion with the same spool. You report the opposite which is interesting. When you say it was a worse combination did it cast shorter or was it just too wild?
I've also seen you mention that you don't have a snap at the end of the cast. Does that mean you swing the rod with it parallel to your arms the whole time? Normally I have the rod perpendicular to the arms on the swing then move it to a parallel position just before the release point.
The Type-R spool casts better in the TDZ than the Steez A because of the magnet strength. Although the type magforce may follow the spool/inductor, the magnets in Mag Z tend to be stronger, although an OG Zillion has less magforce than a TDZ US Trail. On line lay, the faster worm gear levelwind and narrow line guides on say a TDX-HSDF and Zillion PE 6.3 or 7.9, lays braid much better for longer casts, especially with baits like frogs.
I cast side arm, overhand, underhand and with power. Aside skipping, the Streez A, Tat Coastal and Zillion TWS (Gen 1), all three cast for less distance than any of TDZ 103/105 with just a bearing upgrade in the spool. The Gigas Type R and Type R+ were the spools that gave me these results. The Steez Limited 105 spool did not, as neither did the Zillion G1 spool.
I was out again today and the stock Zillion PE with 30lb Stren Sonic was outcasting the Steez A with Gigas Type R spool with ZPI bearing and 30 PP SS8, both with 5/8 oz Yozuri Vibes. The Zillion PE was on a 7'2" Evergreen EG Swimmer and the Steez A on a Phenix Ultra MBX Classic 707MH.
FWIW, I was cranking farther casts with a USDM Zillion 100SHA with Ceramic hybrid sideplate and spool bearings on the same Ultra MBX Classic 707MH just a year ago. I could really launch 5/8+ lipless and walking baits.
Until I see a Zillion Boost spool in perhaps a Steez TWS, I'm not sure the new TWS reels will outcast some of the OG TDZs and Zillions in certain instances with specific spools with very minimal bearing upgrades.
In so far as the spools that were outperforming the current Zillion Boost spools, I heard they were specific tuned ZPI and SLP spools.
In my hands anyway, some of the OG Daiwas still cast for more distance than the TWS reels I have owned and used.
Last edited by dragon1; 12-04-2021 at 07:38 PM.
What I'm really curious about,is how to install "weaker" magnets in the Steez A and other TWS platforms. I think this is more key to better casting performance than changing out the spool.
Get ya a rashed out SS SV103 for cheap and swap the magnets out of it. It would be nice if the whole assembly swapped but you may have to just swap magnets
Reply With Quote
