braid to flouro for jerkbaits...questions

[coreynov902]

Starting next season I'm going to be using a spinning rod/reel to fish jerkbaits like the Vision 110. I'm planning on using 10-15 pound braid to a 10 or 12 pound flouro leader. Here are the questions that have popped up for me when thinking about this...

1. Should I go with a hi-vis braid? Does it make much difference? I have not fished jerkbaits a lot in the past so I'm not sure how much of a factor line watching should be.
2. What length of leader should I use? The places I usually fish typically have anywhere from 2-5 feet of visibility.
3. When I have done braid to leader in the past it has usually been 40-50 pound braid to 15-17 pound flouro, so the diameters of both lines have been pretty close. With doing 10-15 pound braid to 10-12 pound flouro, the diameters of those lines are not going to be as close. Do I need to look at tying a specific connection knot because of this?

Any help is appreciated. Thanks!

[TDobb]

I run 15 lb braid to 8-16 lb fluoro leader for jerkbaits, leader strength depends on the lake I am fishing. I run this on a Tatula Elite 6'-9" jerkbait rod with a Tatula CT 6.3 casting reel. I personally would not recommend a high vis braid for jerkbaiting, I stick to green Daiwa J-Braid X8 Grand. Line watching with a jerkbait is not a thing for me, I am using aggressive snaps with a variable length pause between snaps, and never use the reel to move the bait, only picking up slack. When I get a bite, I don't realize it until the next snap unless its a long pause and the fish pulls before the snap. The snap is the hookset, almost 100% of the time.

For my leader knot, I always tie an alberto knot, most people will recommend the FG. I have only ever had one Alberto break and I told my girlfriend the night before when I tied it that I didn't like that leader knot, next morning I hooked up with a giant on a Neko Rig and my leader knot broke. I learned right then if I don't like the knot, cut it and retie cause it will cause more heartbreak than the time it takes to retie. I have no issues with the leader being slightly larger diameter than the braid main line. Normal leader length for me starts off about 3-4 feet and once it gets down to 18" or so from retying, I will replace it. I can easily tie the alberto on the water, even with wind, so remembering one good leader knot vs multiple lessens my chances of messing up the process.

Don't be afraid to try some cheaper jerkbaits too. I have fished side by side with guys throwing Vision 110s and I am throwing cheaper Shadow Raps or even Husky Jerks, and catch equal numbers. In late season, super cold water periods, the Vision 110s have a slight advantage, but I still wouldn't pay double or triple for them. I have a 3700 box filled to capacity with Shadow Raps and Shadow Rap Shads in both standard and deep, high confidence baits. Bud, Moss Back Shiner, Gone, and Live Perch are my favorite colors.

Water temp was a balmy 44 this day, snow was falling, wind was blowing, and the smallies were smashing a Shadow Rap worked very aggressive with hardly any pause. All signs lead to this being a day when a much slower cadence, longer pauses, and premium baits being the go to. Don't be afraid to go against the grain and experiment until you find the right deal.

[Real L]

First off, I wouldn't use a spinning rod for a Vision 110 type lure. But that's me. I like an Expride rod with a DC reel. I use straight fluoro or mono. Absolutely no knot in the line. The constant jerk is tought on knots especially knots between fluoro and braid. If I were to use a spinning outfit and I do for soft jerkbaits ( flukes) yes it would braid with a fluoro leader ( 12 pound/8 pound ) with the smallest knot I can easily tie. Line color doesn't matter with a leader and I fish in water with more than 10 foot visibility. Color is not a big help with jerkbaits.

[coreynov902]

Thanks for the info guys! I'm certainly not going to just use MB Vision 110's, I was mostly stating that so you would know what size I would typically be using. I'm a Rapala fan and I also have enjoyed using the Jackall Rerange 110. I just haven't used jerkbaits a lot and need all the advice I can get for fishing them. I've typically used a baitcasting rod with an SV or a DC reel in the past, but just purchased a nice spinning rod and reel specifically for throwing them to see if I can get better action, longer casts, and less arm/wrist fatigue going that route. I've never used hi-vis braid before but it seems like a lot of guys love throwing that on spinning set-ups. But evidently that must be mostly for finesse bottom contact presentations, so I'll just stick with dark green braid. I appreciate the input so far.

[TDobb]

Right on, saw your other post about the rod and reel search after replying to this post. You have a great setup for throwing them for sure. I also have a 6'-8" Tatula MXF spinning setup with a Fuego 2500 reel for throwing lighter jerkbaits. I can throw the Shadow Rap on it and definitely get longer distance out of that setup. When it is really windy and I have to cast up wind, I will pick up the spinning rod. I typically reel spinning with my left and casting, reel with my right. My left arm is dumb, and I can't work a jerkbait worth a damn with it, so I bought a lefty casting reel specific for jerkin. I forced myself to do it, and now it feels pretty natural. The most important part of jerkin is being able to snap that bait effectively to get the bait to work how it is intended. I fished a jerkbait every time I went out bassin this summer, probably only have 2 years left of being able to do it the way I do before I need some shoulder work, lol.

[DrewFlu33]

I know from past threads on jerkbaits that TDobb and I are on the same wavelength with jerkbaits, so I'm likely to repeat a lot of what he's said. First off, I absolutely love fishing a jerkbait on braid to a leader. Even though it seems like it's just asking for trouble with the lack of stretch and small trebles, my landing ratio is really high so I don't question it. Maybe even more important, I really feel like I get more bites on the jerkbait as it's just so much easier to "snap" the slack to get the bait to react erratically. Aside from that, a spool of straight fluoro lasts 1, maybe 1.5 days of throwing a jerkbait for me. I think the repeated shocks combined with not getting it back on the reel nicely due to never having tension on it while working the bait are kind of a perfect storm to destroy a spool of fluoro. Whatever it is, that gets spendy really quickly. Replacing a leader, not so much, and the spool of braid will last years.

Getting at your questions:
1. I don't think it matters at all.
2. I usually go 10-15', for a few reasons: First, I want enough there to be able to retie often, and never want to risk a $15 bait to my laziness in trying to avoid having to tie another leader knot. Second, I want some shock absorption/stretch to keep fish pinned on those small trebles. Longer leaders also cast better in my experience (within reason - it goes the other way if the knot is coming off the spool at the end of your cast), I think because of the casting momentum getting rid of any potential issues you'd have from the knot contacting the guides by the time the knot gets there.
3. I've currently got two setups I throw them on, one is 30 lb J-braid to 12 lb Sniper leader, 24 lb Gliss to the same leader on the other (the former is low-vis green, the latter happens to be high-vis yellow by the way...no noticeable difference between them in really any metric). I've waffled on the leader knot thing across my techniques from being 100% FG, to being 100% not-FG (in favor of Shin's knot/Lazy Alberto), to now being about half and half--the short version is I use the FG on my jerkbait rod. No issues getting the leader knot onto the spool or casting with Daiwa T-wings, so definitely no problems on a spinning rod.

I'd also really encourage trying to go with a casting setup if it all possible. It's just so much more efficient (I can make at least 50% more casts throwing one on casting gear vs. spinning gear), it's way easier on your elbow and wrist since it's so much more compact, and realistically it's easy to cast any jerkbait on a casting rod until you get down into the 70-80 size baits. I actually invested in a "BFS" style reel this past spring for it (found a killer deal on a Daiwa SS Air), and it's helped even more. I can realistically throw any jerkbait on casting gear now, and the ones I could throw on normal casting gear before I can really bomb, wind be damned. I use all lefty casting reels anyhow (I'm right handed), but if you're in the traditional camp, I think an opposite-hand baitcaster is definitely a must as TDobb mentions.

One other thing to consider is your rod choice. I think that, all else equal, you're going to want a more moderate action rod for braid to a leader with a jerkbait than with straight fluoro or especially vs. straight mono. My two setups are the Tatula Elite jerkbait rod and a Phenix X10. The Phenix is probably the better of the two for the braid to leader setup as it's a little more moderate, Tatula probably a bit better for straight fluoro but still moderate enough for the braid-to-leader. Bonus is it's easy to cut off the leader and throw topwaters on either one too.

There aren't a lot of bites in bass fishing more fun that rip, rip, pause, rip, ri-SLAM! you get when one freight trains a jerkbait. I love that stuff!

And because I can't help myself....The longer version of my leader knot "journey" leading up to my current half-FG and half-not-FG usage is that I essentially I run an FG on any leader 10 lbs or greater, and a lazy Alberto for lighter stuff. 10 lbs is the minimum where I feel like I can crank on the knot hard enough to get it seated without worrying about it coming undone after a couple hundred casts. For lighter leaders, you run a serious risk of fracturing or at least weakening the leader if you pull hard enough to seat the knot, or if you don't, of the knot coming undone after a while. I also think that on thinner leaders, the diameter advantage of the FG is minimal relative to other knots, while its length (it's easily 3 times longer than basically any other knot) offsets any advantage you might get from it being a tiny bit slimmer.

[coreynov902]

Thanks for your input Drew & TDobb. I'm trying it on spinning gear next season in the hopes that it will be less stressful and fatiguing on my wrist and shoulder. Maybe it's because I just don't use jerkbaits much, maybe my technique or form is wrong, or maybe I'm just a pansy, but it doesn't seem to take long before I am fatigued when I'm using a jerkbait on a baitcaster. That said, I haven't used a braid to leader for jerkbaits yet, so simply being able to use shorter snaps with the rod due to the lack of stretch with the braid should reduce my fatigue some. The baitcaster I used this past year for jerkbaits was a Dobyns Champion XP CB684. I like a shorter rod so I'm not slapping the water when I snap it down, which is why I also decided to go with the 6'8" Ronin for my spinning rod.

With regards to the leader line, I'm debating between using flourocarbon leader material like the Seaguar Blue Label or Seaguar Premier or just getting a spool of InvisX or Tatsu flourocarbon. Any thoughts on this?

[DrewFlu33]

The braid will definitely make a huge difference in fatigue, as you said, you don't have to snap it nearly as hard. The more I think about it, it probably is a good idea to try it with the spinning rod to compare and see what works best for you, everyone is different.

I used to be a big believer in the leader spools as I thought the line seemed tougher. Then I saw some tests that compared them and found no difference in abrasion resistance/strength...I think Salt Strong was the one that convinced me there was some marketing going on here way more than there was any difference. Then it clicked when I realized that the leader material I was buying was often just thicker diameter than the same lb test in a filler spool, and suddenly it made sense as to why it seemed tougher. I've just gone to using regular spools as it's much more economical by the yard, and it's worked out really well for me.

Initially another concern I had was related to "shelf-life" type issues, but that hasn't mattered at all for me in the 5 or 6 years I've been going this route. I know a couple of my spools I use for leaders are at least 3 years old and they still work like a charm. I did invest in some of the spool band things which are really useful for keeping the larger spools tidy...I think there are cheaper versions of the same thing available, but these are the ones I use and they work awesome and look/work the same as they did the day I bought them: https://www.tacklewarehouse.com/Dr_C...page-DRLI.html Previously I was repurposing bands from fly fishing tippet spools and though they worked, they'd often break fairly quickly, lose their plastic inserts, or in the worst instances, the plastic inserts would get grooved and they'd screw up the line as you pulled it through.

[FryDog62]

I may be the outlier here, but after several years of braid to leader for jerk baits... I went to straight 10 lb Invizx last year. For spinning I used 8 lb Yo-Zuri Hybrid at times. The down side of braid for me was:

*Visability: 95% of the time it doesn't matter, but braid (even with a longer leader) in clear water especially for smb did make a difference for me a couple times I got outfished by a guy with straight fluoro.
*Tying and retying leaders gets old - especially when you're out in the water fighting wind/waves.
*I jerkbait in cold water, frequently under 60 degrees. The extra snap you get from no-stretch braid I think can result in an unnatural movement at times (baitfish are sluggish in colder water). I tend to fish too fast anyway. Fluorocarbon has just enough give that at least for me I get a more natural action.

[coreynov902]

If I was using baitcasting gear again next season, I was going to try straight flouro. However, I've just heard too many line management horror stories with flouro on a spinning reel to want to go that route. Also, I use braid a lot on my baitcasting setups so I'm familiar with it's characteristics and prefer it over mono or flouro for most things. I will definitely need to work over the winter on getting better at tying connection knots since I haven't tied a lot of them and I really don't want to be losing expensive baits due to my own incompetence.

[coreynov902]

Drew, thanks for the info on the leader material vs. regular filler spools of flouro. I too was under the impression that the leader material was a different formulation and was simply tougher and better for braid to leader applications. I may see if I can find that video or article you were talking about just so I can see what they tested and how they tested it. Like you said, it's much cheaper per yard to buy a 200 yard spool of "regular" flouro vs. buying a 25 yard spool of the leader material.

[DrewFlu33]

Drew, thanks for the info on the leader material vs. regular filler spools of flouro. I too was under the impression that the leader material was a different formulation and was simply tougher and better for braid to leader applications. I may see if I can find that video or article you were talking about just so I can see what they tested and how they tested it. Like you said, it's much cheaper per yard to buy a 200 yard spool of "regular" flouro vs. buying a 25 yard spool of the leader material.

This one was done with Vanish so only one example, but basically they found exactly the same thing I did: That it was only stronger because the leader was thicker
https://www.saltstrong.com/articles/...knot-strength/

And here's another one they did with Red Label leader vs. mainline that came to the same conclusion:
https://www.saltstrong.com/articles/...-vs-main-line/

[coreynov902]

Thanks Drew, that was an interesting article/video. I kind of wish they had tested the leader material against multiple mainlines instead of just one, but it's still an unexpected outcome. The only difference I have seen between what the article said and my own searching is that a couple of the leader materials I have looked at (Seaguar Gold Label and Seaguar Premier) actually have the same or smaller diameters for the same pound test as the mainline (InvisX or AbrasX). Either way I think I'll just buy a spool of mainline and use that for my leaders simply due to the cost difference.

[bass-o-maticjm]

Thanks for your input Drew & TDobb. I'm trying it on spinning gear next season in the hopes that it will be less stressful and fatiguing on my wrist and shoulder. Maybe it's because I just don't use jerkbaits much, maybe my technique or form is wrong, or maybe I'm just a pansy, but it doesn't seem to take long before I am fatigued when I'm using a jerkbait on a baitcaster.

Doesn't matter if you're using a spinning rod or a baitcaster, you'll need to build up the muscle memory when it comes to working a jerkbait for extended periods of time. When I first got into fishing a lot of jerkbaits (baitcaster), it wouldn't take long before my forearm started burning and I'd have to set it down. Like you, I thought maybe a spinning rod would cure that. Well, after that attempt, my opposite wrist felt the same as my other forearm and I couldn't get the same action out of the bait. Went back to the baitcaster and just stuck with it. After a few outings, the burn was gone and the action became second nature. Build up to it with repetition, but stick with whichever one feels best to you.

[JINXBASS]

Crazy question but what is the benefits of a spinning setup. I throw even 60mm baits and have no problem. Also I throw straight flour 10 lb sniper.

[coreynov902]

Well, I just got my spinning rod and reel and took them out to try for an hour today. Using a Jackall Rerange 110 I have to say I did notice a significant difference. Because the water was cold I wasn’t working the bait aggressively, but my arm didn’t get tired at all. The one big difference I noticed is that when I’m holding the spinning rod, all of my fingers are wrapped around the rod. With a baitcaster I’m palming the reel. For me at least, the spinning rod makes it much more comfortable to do the downward snapping of the rod. Unfortunately I didn’t catch any, but it definitely made me feel I made a good choice going with the rod and reel I did. The spinning reel was spooked with 10lb braid with an 8lb flouro leader.

[JK9027]

I do all my jerkbait fishing braid to leader with a 6'10 spinning rod and it's worked just fine. My favorite bait is a 95 size duel hardcore minnow flat. They're $10 and you can throw it a mile, I guess it's the weight transfer system. Main thing I've noticed about braid is not to over fish it, a little pull moves the bait a long way, I try not to do big yanks, just twitches with my wrist, popping the slack. I never set the hook, just start reeling and they don't come off. I don't have any reason to change tackle wise.