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    #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Chisco View Post
    Thanks Godsdozer for your reply and in post 58 as well. You answered my “what about” question and I now understand why you used the term and you were correct.

    Anyways, I did answer with my thoughts about Jesus’ conversation with His Disciples about “coming” of the Son of Man in post 53. That is what I believe and it makes perfect sense to me and in scripture.
    Your welcome..........

    I was just responding to your direct question to me from post #8.

    I am not sure why you ask me a question and do not participate in my answer in post #58 . Oh well.

    In post #13 "you said you did not want to argue about it ", I am not sure why when someone does not have a leg to stand on they revert to the option " I don't want to argue". I am not here to argue either .............................I am here to discuss differing opinions on the interpretation of scripture that "could" lead to some insight for those who read these threads.

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    #62
    I don’t mind participating at all…..actually look forward to it as it helps my studies.

    24 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings.2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked.Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

    1. They were leaving the Temple area. How would you feel if Jesus told you, that your place of worship ( Baptist, Catholic , Eastern orthodoxy ect was gonna be destroyed? )

    2. The disciples came to him (because they were proud of that edifice), it was where they worshipped God, it was where they brought the sacrifice's each year for sin, it was were they were taught and learned the things of God, it was were their forefathers worshiped it contained Gods presence in the Holy of Holies behind the veil ect ect .

    3. Then Jesus makes this statement : Do you see all of these things ? All of those things was inclusive of the city, the Temple, the merchants the wall's of the beautiful city.

    4. Then Jesus makes this statement : (paraphrased here) its all gonna be wiped out.


    At this point, they walk across the kidron valley and go up on the mount of olives. (thats why its called the Olivet Discourse ).

    Because of what Jesus said would happen to the city and the temple, this disturbed the disciples..................You can tell it did by the tone and questions they asked next.

    ***I have no issues with the above****


    Here it is : 3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?

    The disciples asked Jesus "when" will this happen. "when" is a word regarding "time" or "timing". For example, I am planning on "when" I am going back to the beach next year. So if someone came up to me and said, dozer, when are you going to Port Aransas ? My response would be next year, or soon, or its at hand, or my keys are in my hand.

    1. When would it happen ? Jesus answers it in vs 34 after he gives them all the signs to look for , the tribulation they would endure before it would happen ect. Here is Jesus' answer of "when" ........ "I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass away until all these things come to pass" A generation in the bible is a period of approximatley 40 years. Why are you looking 2000 years later for someting Jesus told them would occur within that generation ? If Jesus was talking about a future generation, he would have said ................ "I tell you the truth, that generation will not pass away until all these things come to pass."

    ***The question is two-fold and Jesus answered them both. 1) what will be the sign of your coming and 2) what will be the sign of the end of age? “this generation” is the generation described in the parable of the fig tree, not the Disciple’s generation. You will see below that Jesus was deliberately keeping something from them (a mystery).

    2. Jesus tells the disciples the signs to look for (not us), remember he was talking privately with his disciples ..............this is a historical narrative of that event.

    3. The disciples in their minds at least...................tie the destruction of the temple and the city with Jesus' coming / parousia. They must have been correct in tying the two events together because NO WHERE in the Olivet Discourse did Jesus ever correct their so called misunderstanding. In other words, futurist as yourself say the disciples were wrong. The destruction of Jerusalem is the most documented event ever in antiquity, that is just a fact, you can read the historical accounts of the event today.

    4. The disciples asked.......................... what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age? You need to ask yourself a simple question. How many ages did the Jews believe in ? What were the ages they believed in ? Ill give you a hint so you can look it up and study it yourself. "age of Moses / Torah" (the age the disciples and Jesus were currently living in) and the "age to come / Messianic Kingdom " (the age we live in today)

    *****The Jews were never told of the Age of Grace (Gentiles). Jesus very clearly says that His ministry on earth was to the Jew only. He even told the Gentiles (when he was approached by them) that their time had not yet come.

    When Paul approached the disciples with his conversion, they didn’t understand. While the Disciples, particularly Peter, did eventually accept Paul’s view, they never quite understood it so they did as Jesus commanded and continued going through the cities of Jerusalem teaching the Law but before they could finish going through the cities, AD70 occurred marking the end of the Age of Law.

    Paul, on the other hand, went on his journey to the Gentiles which he clearly calls “the mystery” that had just been made known to him and that he was to reveal to the world. The Age of Grace is where Paul taught Jesus (death, burial, and resurrection). This teaching has been active for the past 1900+ years.



    What makes you think Jesus was talking to you in this text , rather than privately to his disciples in this historical narrative ?

    ***He was quite clearly talking to the Disciples.

    Last edited by Chisco; 10-24-2021 at 09:41 PM.

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    #63
    "Jesus was deliberately keeping something from them"........................ okay.......................... LOL Jesus is a deceiver he is hiding a message ect. ................ Who would want a deceiver as a messiah ?

    I have posted here on the BBC a 500+ post on the Challenge of Christ entitled Morning Musings . You might want to visit those videos.

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    #64
    The Jew's were never told of the age of Grace ? How about Abraham .......................bye Faith ( not by works or observance of Law )?

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    #65
    Lets go further back.......................... How about Adam and Eve ? They were covered by fig leaves .....................their nakedness was covered by God ? Their shamefulness and sinful ways were taken care of by God ?

    Is that not the Gospel ? , the Good news ?

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    #66
    you said......................“this generation” is the generation described in the parable of the fig tree, not the Disciple’s generation.


    LOL, what exegital reasoning lines up with your statement ?

    I know it is very hard to shed previous belief systems...................... can you actually read what you type ?

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    #67
    The Bible really is very simple to understand and it all falls perfectly into place when you separate completely the nation of Israel (even in the New Testament) from the Church (Body of Christ). All the contradictions disappear and everything becomes sensible. It helps also when you understand two things…..1) Jesus’ message during His earthly ministry was to the Jews only and ; 2) The “mystery”,as Paul describes it, was not revealed to the Jews until Paul revealed it to them and to the Gentiles. It is Gods ministry to the Gentiles and it still applies today (Age of Grace or Church age, whatever is your preferred description) and we are still living it.

    When you consider the above, you don’t have to argue about dates of the writings of Biblical books in order to fit your belief. You don’t have to force Jesus’ thousand year reign into a 40 year period before AD70. You don’t have to completely disregard multiple scripture passages talking of Jesus’ glorious return that will be seen by all. You don’t have to believe that Satan is no longer in the world although the world today is crazy and full of murder, immorality, etc.
    Last edited by Chisco; 10-25-2021 at 05:12 PM.

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    #68
    Quote Originally Posted by godsdozer View Post
    The Jew's were never told of the age of Grace ? How about Abraham .......................bye Faith ( not by works or observance of Law )?
    The Bible tells us that Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness (faith). Abraham was never told about the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. He was never told of Gods ministry to the Gentiles (age of Grace). He was told by God that his son (Isaac) would be the father of a great nation (Jews) and that’s where Gods Covenant comes to fruition.

    God required faith throughout the Old and New Testaments, however, God’s Plan was a progressive revelation. God only gave the information that they were required to believe for their salvation.
    Last edited by Chisco; 10-25-2021 at 03:11 PM.

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    #69
    Quote Originally Posted by godsdozer View Post
    "Jesus was deliberately keeping something from them"........................ okay.......................... LOL Jesus is a deceiver he is hiding a message ect. ................ Who would want a deceiver as a messiah ?

    I have posted here on the BBC a 500+ post on the Challenge of Christ entitled Morning Musings . You might want to visit those videos.
    Christ is not a deceiver. The Old Testament (and into the New Testament), is a progressive revelation of Gods Plan. He didn’t reveal to Adam or to Abraham about the end times or of the death, burial and Resurrection of Christ. He didn’t reveal to the Jews that the Gentiles would be heirs.

    Was He trying to be deceitful? Of course not. He gave them only the information they needed for saving. The mystery (of the ministry to the Gentiles/church age or Age of Grace) was kept from them until Paul came in the picture.

    Romans 11:25 - "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery (secret), lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part (for a while) is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles (the Body) be come in."
    Last edited by Chisco; 10-25-2021 at 05:38 PM.

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    #70
    Quote Originally Posted by godsdozer View Post
    Lets go further back.......................... How about Adam and Eve ? They were covered by fig leaves .....................their nakedness was covered by God ? Their shamefulness and sinful ways were taken care of by God ?

    Is that not the Gospel ? , the Good news ?

    Of course they believed God (faith). Adam believed the promise God gave in Genesis 3:15 that the Seed of the woman would conquer Satan. Adam believed Him, demonstrated by the name he gave Eve (v.20) and the Lord indicated His acceptance immediately by covering them (v.21). At that point, that’s all Adam knew. Was God being deceptive by not telling Adam/Eve the whole story of the Bible? Of course not.
    Last edited by Chisco; 10-25-2021 at 04:24 PM.

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    #71
    Quote Originally Posted by godsdozer View Post
    you said......................“this generation” is the generation described in the parable of the fig tree, not the Disciple’s generation.


    LOL, what exegital reasoning lines up with your statement ?

    I know it is very hard to shed previous belief systems...................... can you actually read what you type ?
    I had to go back and study the Word for a moment and you are correct in that it is regarding the destruction of Jerusalem AD70. I was wrong. (EDIT……I return to my belief that it is regarding the end times as a future event)

    You don’t have to comment on any of the following scriptures. They are for consideration by anyone if they have interest.

    If all future events were fulfilled by Titus in 70 AD, then what do you do with the following scriptures? Did any of these things take place before, and up to, 70 AD?


    Acts 1:11 - "...this same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." - (Bodily, head first, from the Mt. of Olives)


    Romans 11:12 - "Now if the fall of them (Israel) be the riches of the world (our gospel of Grace), and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles (our age of Grace); how much more their fulness?" (Israel’s future blessing)


    Romans 11:23 - "And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graft them in again." (Jews/Israel)


    Romans 11:24 - "...how much more shall these, which be the natural branches (Israel), be graffed into their own olive tree?"


    Romans 11:25 - "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery (secret), lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part (for a while) is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles (the Body) be come in."


    II Thess. 2:3,4 - "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (the Day of the Lord - the Tribulation) shall not come, except there come a falling away (or a departure) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."(Compare this with Daniel 11)


    II Thess. 2:8 - "And then shall that Wicked (the Anti-christ) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming."


    Jude verses 14 and 15a - "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all,...."
    Now, here are more verses from the Old Testament - Keep asking - "Have/Did these things happen before 70 AD?"


    Deut. 30:1,2a - "And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, wither the Lord thy God hath driven thee, And shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt obey his voice...."


    Ezek. 37:1-10, 12- (the vision of the dry bones) "Therefore prophesy and say unto them (the whole house of Israel), Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves (the Gentile nations), ...and bring you to the land of Israel."


    Ezek. 37:21, 22, 23- "And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God."


    Ezek. 47:9- "And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh."


    Ezek. 47:10- "And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from En-gedi (now a resort on the West shores of the Dead Sea) even unto En-eglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea (Mediterranean), exceeding many."


    Daniel 9:27- "And he (the Prince-the Anti-christ) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (7 years): and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." (the desolator, the Anti-christ)-(This is the verse Jesus referred to in Matthew 24:15)


    Joel 3:2- "I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land."


    Joel 3:15, 16- "The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel."


    Amos 9:15- "And I will plant them (Israel) upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord thy God."


    Zech. 14:4a- "And his feet (the Lord’s-see verse 3) shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east...." (Compare that with previously quoted Acts 1:11 - He left head first - He returns feet first.)


    Zech. 14:8- "And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half toward the hinder sea (Dead Sea): in summer and in winter shall it be." (Compare with previously quoted Ezek. 47:9 and 10.)


    Zech. 14:9- "And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one."


    These are just a few of the scriptures that refer to future events that could not have taken place before 70 AD.
    Last edited by Chisco; 10-27-2021 at 05:22 PM.

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    #72
    Chisco........................ You have admitted that Matthew 24 is referencing Gods "coming" in judgment on Jerusalem.

    Luke gets a little more specific when Luke states this :

    Luke 21............ But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city. 22For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.


    all that is written...............is a term to describe prophecy.

    Jesus said it, not me.



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    #73
    [QUOTE=godsdozer;12146485]Chisco........................ You have admitted that Matthew 24 is referencing Gods "coming" in judgment on Jerusalem.

    Luke gets a little more specific when Luke states this :

    Luke 21............ But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city. 22For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.


    all that is written...............is a term to describe prophecy.

    Jesus said it, not me.

    It is referencing both the end times and the Destruction of the Temple (Judgement on Jerusalem)

    AD70 occurred and caused the spreading of Jews throughout the world. However, the Jews will have another opportunity once the fulfillment of the Gentiles (Church age) has occurred. We are in the Church age now and the below has yet to occur or is occurring now.

    Romans 11:12 - "Now if the fall of them (Israel) be the riches of the world (our gospel of Grace), and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles (our age of Grace); how much more their fulness?" (Israel’s future blessing)


    Romans 11:23 - "And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graft them in again." (Jews/Israel)


    Romans 11:24 - "...how much more shall these, which be the natural branches (Israel), be graffed into their own olive tree?"


    Romans 11:25 - "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery (secret), lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part (for a while) is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles (the Body) be come in."
    Last edited by Chisco; 10-27-2021 at 05:15 PM.

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    #74
    Quote Originally Posted by godsdozer View Post
    Chisco........................ You have admitted that Matthew 24 is referencing Gods "coming" in judgment on Jerusalem.

    Luke gets a little more specific when Luke states this :

    Luke 21............ But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city. 22For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.


    all that is written...............is a term to describe prophecy.

    Jesus said it, not me.


    Yes…..but it also talks of the end times/Second Coming of Christ and the Destruction of the Temple (AD70) as two events separated by time….see post 75.
    Last edited by Chisco; 10-27-2021 at 05:17 PM.

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    #75
    Quote Originally Posted by godsdozer View Post
    Chisco........................ You have admitted that Matthew 24 is referencing Gods "coming" in judgment on Jerusalem.

    Luke gets a little more specific when Luke states this :

    Luke 21............ But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city. 22For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.


    all that is written...............is a term to describe prophecy.

    Jesus said it, not me.


    I am so glad that you brought up Luke 21. After prayer and study, I return to my original answer that Jesus was answering two questions although the Disciples likely believed the two events were to occur at the same time. However, one was the Destruction of the Temple (approx. AD70) and the spreading of Jews out of Jerusalem and the other were events leading up to the end of times (Jesus’ Second Coming)

    Luke 21:8-11….Jesus is telling the Disciples the events that will occur before the end of times/Jesus’ Second Coming. These events have yet to occur or are occurring today.

    Luke 21:12….begins with “But before all this…….” Luke 21:12-24…..Jesus tells the Disciples of the Destruction of the Temple, the spreading of the Jews throughout the world, the rise of the Gentiles (trample of the Jews), UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles in God (still happening now). The Jews will again be gathered in Israel (see Romans 11:12 and 11:23-25) (This is occurring now and yet to be fulfilled).

    It is clear that the Second Coming of Christ(end of age) and the Destruction of the Temple/Jerusalem are two completely separate events that did not occur at the same time….”But before all this….. “ are important words in Luke 21.




    Last edited by Chisco; 10-27-2021 at 05:01 PM.

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    #76
    I say.....................Uncle ( hope you are old enough to know what that means .........................................


    P.s.

    I was a Premillennialist for decades......................... I know the verses, I know the text, I know the OT and NT verses you use in your argument. THEY DO NOT HOLD WATER IN A EXEGETICAL ANYALISIS .

    But rather than writing paragraphs......................and paragraphs and paragraphs I would instead recommend >

    I will refer to you again to the 500+ post of the YouTube videos entitled .......... "morning musings" on the "challenge of Christ " I provide for this forum daily.

    Christ challenged his followers ( in the first century and ours as well ) with this statement ........ "Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father" in John 10:37 .

    How many Morning Musings have you watched................. just curious ?
    Last edited by godsdozer; 10-28-2021 at 10:37 PM.

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    #77
    P.s.s.


    Have you watched the 2hr. video of post #41 ? by your responses ...............I don't think you have.

    It is very informative...................... it shows the holes in your interpretative method ............. and a preterist both partial and Full were not invited :(

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    #78
    Quote Originally Posted by godsdozer View Post
    P.s.s.


    Have you watched the 2hr. video of post #41 ? by your responses ...............I don't think you have.

    It is very informative...................... it shows the holes in your interpretative method ............. and a preterist both partial and Full were not invited :(
    Yes….I watched a large majority of the video. They all believe in the current Church Age Gospel….the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Christ…..and If I recall correctly, they all believe we are awaiting for Christ’s 1000 year reign or at least the culmination of it when it is glorious and without sin.

    They are far greater versed in the Bible than I am. Yet, (and here is the glaring point) they still disagree on the interpretation of certain scriptures or parts of the Bible and, in some instances, very strongly disagree.

    With that said, It definitely didn’t reveal holes in my interpretive method. I agree with a lot of what they said and likely align closely with one of them and fairly closely to the others (with exception of where we are in the millennium).
    Last edited by Chisco; 10-29-2021 at 04:44 PM.

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    #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Chisco View Post
    Yes….I watched a large majority of the video. I don’t see anything in the video that would reveal holes in my interpretation of the Bible though. I could even say that I align with one of the participants.

    I will agree however, that the participants are far, far more versed in the Bible than I am. Yet, (and here is the glaring point) they still disagree on the interpretation of certain scriptures or parts of the Bible and, in some instances, very strongly disagree.

    It was a good video and very interesting to her the various interpretations.


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    #80
    Did Jesus actually mean what he said to his disciples ?


    In regards to your question, really don't understand how you can "doubt" what Jesus said whatever that may be. Didn't read all the replies but the question, as you put it, is asking me whether or not what Jesus said is accurate. In my mind, Jesus is infallible....there is no need to question anything he has said.
    Sacred Heart of Mary, pray for us now, and at the hour of our death. AMEN
    O blood and water which gush forth from the heart of Jesus, have mercy on us
    For the sake of his sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and the whole world

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