Did Jesus actually mean what he said to his disciples ?

[godsdozer]

It’s a good question. I tend to believe that when Jesus says “before the Son of Man comes”, he is talking about His coming judgement on Israel (70 AD). I don’t believe Jesus is talking about His “second coming”. Regardless, we are still under a period of God’s Grace where our sins have been forgiven through the death of Christ. He was buried and raised from the dead and now sits at the right hand of God. He is my Lord and Savior regardless of where we are in God’s timeline.

Chisco,

I am a horrible typer LOL. I need to work on my communication skills. Problem is, when I was in school I tended to do much better in sports than I did in English classes. Actually I had to take Jr. English and Sr. English my senior year of high school just to graduate. :) At Mississippi State University, I did much better in golf than english as well :)


You have stated a few times in this thread that you have answered my question. I will do my best to address your answers without writing a book.


A little background about me, I am 57 years old, and I have studied every eschatological position known to the church since I was 12 years old. Revelation was the very first book of the bible I read when I came to be known by the Lord (saved), I will not pretend that I understood any of it @ that time, but it sure was full of a bunch of cool stuff for a 12 year old to read about, LOL. And I will not pretend I understand all of it today. It is a very Jewish book.

I came from a dispensational view point for most of my life , at least up until I was in my late 30s. I know the dispensationalism viewpoint like the back of my hand, I have went through the dispensational charts / timelines a million times, I have attempted to draw some myself back in the day LOL.

During my studies over the years as I became more "reformed" in most of my beliefs............I studied the Amillennialist perspective, Postmillennialism, Historic premillennialism as well , and of course the old trusty Dispensationalism. I know every one of the verses / chapters that each of those camps use to defend their positions. I know them, because I have spent the time to examine them in great detail. Here is a great video (yes a couple hours long ) ............. . The only bad thing about the video is this , they did not invite a partial preterist or a full preterist to the table for their viewpoint.

In my early 40s I came a across this : The Last Days According to Jesus - R.C. Sproul - YouTube while I was a teaching elder at a local church. They had asked me to begin a teaching series on the book of Revelation for the congregation. This began a 6 or 7 year deep dive into eschatology. I spent 6-10 hours a day during those years. This does not make me right in what I believe but It does lend to some credibility that I at least know the arguments / positions


​ I had never even heard of the term "preterist" until one evening I came across a random web page with huge lime green letters that said "JESUS RETURNED IN A.D. 70" . Of course I laughed when I read that, dismissed it just like everyone else who hears that "claim". Little did I know that my life would completely change a couple years later during those years of study.


Now on to your answers :

First off, you totally contradict yourself In post #2 and post #5. Let me show you your own words :

Post #2 I tend to believe that when Jesus says “before the Son of Man comes”, he is talking about His coming judgement on Israel (70 AD)

Post #5 I don’t believe Jesus returned in AD70.

Maybe you missed typed like I do at times, but those are two contradictory statements. "his coming / parousia in judgment on Israel, I dont believe Jesus returned in AD................. Ill admit I loose patience at times dealing with this kind of stuff.


You are correct.................Jesus was talking about his coming / parousia at the end of the age to judge Israel (just like Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 explicitly states).

The problem you present with your comment regarding "this is not his second coming" is so problematic if you carefully examine just those 3 chapters with a fine tooth comb, not to mention the hundreds of old and NT passages. I will repeat, how many "comings" does the bible mention ? My answer, 2 of them. 1. As the sacrificial lamb of God 2. As the king of kings and ruler of his kingdom @ his "second appearing".

The bible never mentions nor even hints at a 3rd coming.................................you know , the other coming you are attempting to create in your argument. I give you much credit, at least you identify Jesus as coming to judge Jerusalem. Most cant even get that far.

While typing this it jogs my memory of when I "became" a partial preterist.................after a couple of years of study I knew in my knower that partial preterism was just as guilty as all of the other eschatological positions of "making things up" to fit their biblical narrative. (P.s. please note, when I use the term argument I am not using it as a derogatory /lets fight/ lets yell term but rather as a debate term, people are so sensitive these days I want to make sure this is clear)

Your comment regarding 1 Thessolonians 4 :16-17


Does not say in the "clouds" in the Greek language............................. Yes translators , mistranslate the Greek word "Aer" and "Ouranos" ( hope I spelt those two Greek words right, its been awhile) . Do a Greek lexicon search and see the difference :) It just might change your view from the air we breath and the clouds where the birds fly :)


Your comment about "the gospel" being preached to the whole world....................I presented the text that speak directly to your objection already. You claim " preached and proclaiming" were different ............


Regarding your comment : the bible doesn't document that all of the above occurred prior to AD70. Of course it doesn't document it because the books of the new testament were all written prior to AD70. You should read (Dr. Kennith Gentry "Before Jerusalem fell". It might make you rethink why dating the books of the bible are important to your understanding of the books.
BUT ONE THING IT DOES DOCUMENT IS THIS : IT WAS AT HAND, NEAR, AT THE DOOR, AXE IS ALREADY AT THE ROOT OF THE TREE, THE TIME IS NEAR, THE NIGHT IS ALMOST GONE, THE DAY IS ALREADY SHINING, DO NOT SEAL UP THE WORDS OF THIS BOOK, BECAUSE THE TIME IS AT HAND, YES I AM COMING SOON! I could go on and on.................

Im tired of typing.............................so I may address your comments in your post #18 later.

[Chisco]

Thanks Godsdozer for taking the time for your response. I now understand a little more about Preterism after your response and the quick research that I did. No need to address post # 18 since (I learned after posting) full Preterism has God’s timeline well beyond the 2nd coming, judgement, and Satan thrown into darkness forever. My answer would not be pertinent due to the timeline.

As far as my posts in #2 and #5, I did mean them to be the same thing…Gods judgement on Israel. Regardless, I now understand some of your questions a little better.

Have a safe trip and God bless.

[Chisco]

I can't speak for Dozer but here's what I think he meant. Let's take the following scripture that he quoted:



He was wanting a direct explanation of how that verse could be interpreted as anything other than a very near second coming AT THAT TIME. Instead of giving your opinion of that verse, you pointed to other scripture. Don't get me wrong, I understand your point but it didn't directly address the verse he quoted. I think that's where the whataboutism thing came from.

Again, that's my speculation. The fact is, it's not an open and shut case either way. My comments aren't from a position of support for preterism because I really don't know. I just know it's contrary to popular teachings and sometimes things get rejected based soley on the fact they go against the grain.

I think I understand now. Thanks for responding.

[Chisco]

This is why I appreciate "HoustonG" input on this forum............................ he and I may agree, or disagree but his logic and reasoning is at least "on par" with realism.

Whataboutism.......................usually does not apply with HoustonG .

sure you do….he doesn’t contradict you because he doesn’t believe (or doesn’t know whether) the Bible is the Word of God. Therefore, he never challenges you with scripture.

[HoustonG]

sure you do….he doesn’t contradict you because he doesn’t believe (or doesn’t know whether) the Bible is the Word of God. Therefore, he never challenges you with scripture.

Actually Dozer and I have engaged in several conversations both public and private. He's disagreed with me plenty of times and I'm sure I've been under his skin as much as I appear to be under yours right now. What I can say is that he never responded to my questions or skepticisms in a judgmental fashion. I'm not contradicting your beliefs because you are free to believe what you want. My issue is with the closed-minded intolerance directed to people who aren't like-minded. If you can prove your stance to everybody else beyond a shadow of a doubt then please do so. If not, you are simply voicing your own personal beliefs and opinions and you should acknowledge them as such.

[Chisco]

Actually Dozer and I have engaged in several conversations both public and private. He's disagreed with me plenty of times and I'm sure I've been under his skin as much as I appear to be under yours right now. What I can say is that he never responded to my questions or skepticisms in a judgmental fashion. I'm not contradicting your beliefs because you are free to believe what you want. My issue is with the closed-minded intolerance directed to people who aren't like-minded. If you can prove your stance to everybody else beyond a shadow of a doubt then please do so. If not, you are simply voicing your own personal beliefs and opinions and you should acknowledge them as such.

I understand that you are looking for proof beyond a shadow of a doubt but that will never happen. “Faith” is required by God.

Please forgive me for making you feel like you are being judged. I have no right or authority to judge anyone. I have done far more bad than good in my lifetime. I just feel very strongly about the Word of God (the Bible) and that we have hope in the coming of our Lord and Savior. I will say, however, that I have acknowledged many times in posts that I am simply stating my belief.

I do feel like you and Godsdozer align quite a bit in posts and it may be that you guys are similar in some respects with your beliefs. As I understand it, you believe there is an unidentified creator (of the earth and beings) and that you have no proof that makes you believe that the Bible is the Word of God. You believe we are living a life on earth and will simply pass away (or don’t know what happens when we pass).

Godsdozer also believes we are in a time period where we are living our life and will simply pass away. The difference is that he identifies the creator as God/Christ. He also believes the Bible is true but it only talks of the past and has no real meaning (beyond historical documentation) for the current time period.

The above is simply what I understand. Godsdozer has said Preterism is far too difficult to put in simple terms so I could be way off base.

With that said, I will not try to convince you or anyone else that my belief is right or wrong in future posts. I will simply state what my beliefs are and if anyone is interested in asking questions, I will be happy respond.

May God bless you and Dozer and the others that participate.

[HoustonG]

Dozer and I are very different in our beliefs. When it comes to preterism, I'm not equipped to have a deep conversation on that. Dozer, on the other hand knows it inside out and upside down. He is also a former pastor who had far more biblical knowledge than I ever will, even before he converted to preterism. Only he can speak to the details of preterism, I'm definitely not equipped. I absolutely believe we are created. When it comes to the Bible my skepticism is very simple, we have to first have faith in the men who wrote the Bible to truly believe that it represents the actual word of God. If you're faith in God is based on the Bible then your faith is first in the men who wrote it. That's inarguable. Like I've stated before, God existed before the Bible and God would exist if the Bible didn't. It's really just that simple to me. I never have understood why people only allow God to exist within the words of the bible. Everything in creation would still be just as magnificent as it is today whether the Bible existed or not, do you agree? God and religion are two seperate things. This could turn into a huge conversation but I'm not trying to drag this thread off into that direction.

[Chisco]

Dozer and I are very different in our beliefs. When it comes to preterism, I'm not equipped to have a deep conversation on that. Dozer, on the other hand knows it inside out and upside down. He is also a former pastor who had far more biblical knowledge than I ever will, even before he converted to preterism. Only he can speak to the details of preterism, I'm definitely not equipped. I absolutely believe we are created. When it comes to the Bible my skepticism is very simple, we have to first have faith in the men who wrote the Bible to truly believe that it represents the actual word of God. If you're faith in God is based on the Bible then your faith is first in the men who wrote it. That's inarguable. Like I've stated before, God existed before the Bible and God would exist if the Bible didn't. It's really just that simple to me. I never have understood why people only allow God to exist within the words of the bible. Everything in creation would still be just as magnificent as it is today whether the Bible existed or not, do you agree? God and religion are two seperate things. This could turn into a huge conversation but I'm not trying to drag this thread off into that direction.

Thanks Houston….You are right and I shouldn’t make assumptions about Godsdozer’s beliefs because I don’t understand Preterism. He does seem to have great knowledge of the various eschatological beliefs, whereas, I am limited. As far as the Bible, I disagree that everything would be just as magnificent without it. It’s God’s Word that has taught us about sin, morality and, most importantly, our salvation through Jesus Christ. It would take many, many hours/days to discuss.

However, I do agree that God and religion are two separate things…..and I agree that it is a very long conversation as well.

[HoustonG]

Thanks Houston….You are right and I shouldn’t make assumptions about Godsdozer’s beliefs because I don’t understand Preterism

I just wanted to point out that our beliefs are different, not for my sake, but for Dozers. I was afraid he was going to see you say we align a lot which would cause him to spit his coffee across the kitchen table! haha

I disagree that everything would be just as magnificent without it. It’s God’s Word that has taught us about sin, morality and, most importantly, our salvation through Jesus Christ. It would take many, many hours/days to discuss.

Really? All of creation is without lustre until you read a book about it? Is the love you give and receive (from your spouse, kids, parents, friends) diminished unless someone describes it to you in writing? I think gods wonder is obvious and able to stand alone. His actions are greater than words. As for what the bible teaches us, would you seriously not know right from wrong otherwise? I know full fledged athiests with high moral standards who are loyal to their spouse, great parents, and wonderful honest people. I also know bible thumping, scripture quoting people that I would not trust alone in a room with my mother. I realize the "churchy" thing to say (I just made that word up) is that we would all be ax murderers without reading the bible because we wouldn't know any better, but that's just not reality.

[Chisco]

Houston….yes, it’s hard for me to understand the unfathomable power of God’s Word.

[HoustonG]

But better yet is the actual power of God!

[Chisco]

After prayer and much consideration of the above, I owe both Godsdozer and Houston an apology. First, some of my posts do seem to judge and I have absolutely no right to do so. Judgement belongs to God only. Second, Godsdozer is right about my use of the term ‘whataboutism’. While I didn’t understand initially, he was looking for my concise exegetical answer without arguing his position or questioning his beliefs. Please forgive me.

I will provide my concise answer to Matthew 10:23 in another post shortly when time is on my side.

[Chisco]

In order to fully understand the Bible, you must know that Jesus’ earthly ministry was to the Jews only. While He did interact with Gentiles on a couple of occasions, He stated specifically that dealing with the Gentiles was not His purpose while on earth.

Regarding Matthew 10:23, Jesus is saying to His 12 Disciples that He will soon bring Judgment and destruction to the Jews/Jerusalem and many Jews will then be spread throughout the world. I agree with many that the destruction occurred in AD70. However, AD70 was not the final judgment of the world marked by the glorious return of Christ. It marks the end of the Jewish economy (the Law) which brings about the age of Grace where all people, including Jews, will be required to believe in Jesus christ (death, burial and resurrection) to be saved.

Jesus never revealed to the Jews or his Disciples that the Age of Grace would occur or that the Gentiles would be co-heirs of the Kingdom. Jesus commanded the Disciples to only go through the cities of Jerusalem (and specifically says to avoid the Gentiles) where they are to continue teaching the law…which they did until AD70 at which time the end had come for the Jews in Gods Word. However, they will make another appearance far in the future (described below).

In Acts, Paul tells us that He is the Apostle to the Gentiles. He speaks of the Age of Grace in Ephesians 3:1-12 (See also the book of Acts and also Romans 16:15-27), a period that had been kept secret (a mystery as Paul describes it) throughout the ages and never before mentioned in the Bible. The age of Grace (mystery) is extended to everyone living and has continued for more than 1900 years (to present day).

The Bible also tells us that the Jews will return to the forefront following the age of Grace to spread the news of the Kingdom throughout the world. In Luke 21:24, Jesus tells the Disciples “and they (Jews/Jerusalem) shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the Gentiles UNTIL the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” Romans 11:25. The Jews will then be gathered again.

The Old and New Testaments teach that before Christ can return to earth for His millennial kingdom the nation of Israel must be converted to Jesus as their Messiah and call on Him to save them. This is taught throughout the Bible (Lev. 26:40–42; Jer. 3:11–18; Hosea 5:15; Zech. 12:10; Matt. 23:37–39; Acts 3:19–21) and we are still waiting for this event to occur.

[HoustonG]

After prayer and much consideration of the above, I owe both Godsdozer and Houston an apology. First, some of my posts do seem to judge and I have absolutely no right to do so. Judgement belongs to God only. Second, Godsdozer is right about my use of the term ‘whataboutism’. While I didn’t understand initially, he was looking for my concise exegetical answer without arguing his position or questioning his beliefs. Please forgive me.

I will provide my concise answer to Matthew 10:23 in another post shortly when time is on my side.

You owe nobody an apology. I like the discussions and appreciate other perspectives. I've not been offended at all and I'm probably more unfiltered than most here, although I really don't try to be abrasive. I see this forum as a place for open and frank discussions without the need for sugar coating on everything we say. You've said nothing wrong or offensive.

[godsdozer]

Chisco, thanks for the apology, but as Houston stated, none is needed. This forum is filled with differing opinion's on the Christian faith (primarily ). You have to have thick skin when you enter the arena of "Theology"........... :)

I will respond to this thread as time permits.

P.s.

I have no clue what HoustonG believes, Nor do I really care. Houston probably doesn't loose sleep over what I believe. LOL

[HoustonG]

I have no clue what HoustonG believes, Nor do I really care. Houston probably doesn't loose sleep over what I believe. LOL

All I know is that I have been lumped together with you in one thread and Rexico in another. Odd couples, no?

I can always identify people who can't think freely by their need to categorize others.

[godsdozer]

I understand that you are looking for proof beyond a shadow of a doubt but that will never happen. “Faith” is required by God.

Please forgive me for making you feel like you are being judged. I have no right or authority to judge anyone. I have done far more bad than good in my lifetime. I just feel very strongly about the Word of God (the Bible) and that we have hope in the coming of our Lord and Savior. I will say, however, that I have acknowledged many times in posts that I am simply stating my belief.

I do feel like you and Godsdozer align quite a bit in posts and it may be that you guys are similar in some respects with your beliefs. As I understand it, you believe there is an unidentified creator (of the earth and beings) and that you have no proof that makes you believe that the Bible is the Word of God. You believe we are living a life on earth and will simply pass away (or don’t know what happens when we pass).

Godsdozer also believes we are in a time period where we are living our life and will simply pass away. The difference is that he identifies the creator as God/Christ. He also believes the Bible is true but it only talks of the past and has no real meaning (beyond historical documentation) for the current time period.

The above is simply what I understand. Godsdozer has said Preterism is far too difficult to put in simple terms so I could be way off base.

With that said, I will not try to convince you or anyone else that my belief is right or wrong in future posts. I will simply state what my beliefs are and if anyone is interested in asking questions, I will be happy respond.

May God bless you and Dozer and the others that participate.

I do not believe anything near what you have stated in the bold highlighted part of your response. I post almost daily the things I believe. Some things I post , I may not have a concrete opinion and I usually state that in my post.

[godsdozer]

what are your thoughts on Mathew 24:4-8? I am waiting on those events to continue to unfold. In my eyes, the world is certainly trending in that direction. I also believe during Jesus’ 1000 year reign, whether literally or spiritually, there will be peace and comfort to all in that time period. The remnant of Jews will preach Gods Word relating to the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. Today, the practicing Jews that are on earth still practice the law as opposed to the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

I believe God has given me comfort in my belief (pre-millennialist). He would have to impress upon my heart to accept a preterist or other view. I haven’t been compelled to consider other views and quite frankly I feel an uneasiness when thinking about them. I am not saying those views are wrong. One of them may very well be correct but God hasn’t revealed that to me. Regardless, whatever the belief on the end times, we are all saved who accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.

Matthew 24:4-8

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you.5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

To understand Matthew 24:4-8 It is paramount to understand WHY Jesus spoke those things in verses' 4-8. So lets go back a couple verses and find out.

1. In Matthew 24:1 we find this historical narrative.

24 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings.2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

1. They were leaving the Temple area. How would you feel if Jesus told you, that your place of worship ( Baptist, Catholic , Eastern orthodoxy ect was gonna be destroyed? )

2. The disciples came to him (because they were proud of that edifice), it was where they worshipped God, it was where they brought the sacrifice's each year for sin, it was were they were taught and learned the things of God, it was were their forefathers worshiped it contained Gods presence in the Holy of Holies behind the veil ect ect .

3. Then Jesus makes this statement : Do you see all of these things ? All of those things was inclusive of the city, the Temple, the merchants the wall's of the beautiful city.

4. Then Jesus makes this statement : (paraphrased here) its all gonna be wiped out.


At this point, they walk across the kidron valley and go up on the mount of olives. (thats why its called the Olivet Discourse ).

Because of what Jesus said would happen to the city and the temple, this disturbed the disciples..................You can tell it did by the tone and questions they asked next.

Here it is : 3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

The disciples asked Jesus "when" will this happen. "when" is a word regarding "time" or "timing". For example, I am planning on "when" I am going back to the beach next year. So if someone came up to me and said, dozer, when are you going to Port Aransas ? My response would be next year, or soon, or its at hand, or my keys are in my hand.

1. When would it happen ? Jesus answers it in vs 34 after he gives them all the signs to look for , the tribulation they would endure before it would happen ect. Here is Jesus' answer of "when" ........ "I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass away until all these things come to pass" A generation in the bible is a period of approximatley 40 years. Why are you looking 2000 years later for someting Jesus told them would occur within that generation ? If Jesus was talking about a future generation, he would have said ................ "I tell you the truth, that generation will not pass away until all these things come to pass."

2. Jesus tells the disciples the signs to look for (not us), remember he was talking privately with his disciples ..............this is a historical narrative of that event.

3. The disciples in their minds at least...................tie the destruction of the temple and the city with Jesus' coming / parousia. They must have been correct in tying the two events together because NO WHERE in the Olivet Discourse did Jesus ever correct their so called misunderstanding. In other words, futurist as yourself say the disciples were wrong. The destruction of Jerusalem is the most documented event ever in antiquity, that is just a fact, you can read the historical accounts of the event today.

4. The disciples asked.......................... what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age? You need to ask yourself a simple question. How many ages did the Jews believe in ? What were the ages they believed in ? Ill give you a hint so you can look it up and study it yourself. "age of Moses / Torah" (the age the disciples and Jesus were currently living in) and the "age to come / Messianic Kingdom " (the age we live in today)


What makes you think Jesus was talking to you in this text , rather than privately to his disciples in this historical narrative ?


Please don't do the "whataboutism" deal prior to finishing discussion on this topic. You asked me a specific and legitimate question and I did my best to address it in a simple way.

Hope this helps, Ill be glad to answer any question that deals with the Olivet Discourse.

[godsdozer]

P.s.

The city of Jerusalem was not a small city.............................................. .............. there were over a million people who inhabited that city

[Chisco]

P.s.

The city of Jerusalem was not a small city.............................................. .............. there were over a million people who inhabited that city

Thanks Godsdozer for your reply and in post 58 as well. You answered my “what about” question and I now understand why you used the term and you were correct.

Anyways, I did answer with my thoughts about Jesus’ conversation with His Disciples about “coming” of the Son of Man in post 53. That is what I believe and it makes perfect sense to me and in scripture.