I've noticed several of these "Refutation" videos you've posted. As a neutral observer that uses God's gift of Google, I've read several articles where evidence is layed out in "refutation" of preterism. The one I'm linking was well written and makes some convincing arguments. I'm sure the authors points are nothing you haven't heard before, but what is your response to it? Especially the "now and not yet" and "now and yet again" pattern of scripture the author uses to neutralize the scriptures preterism sees as evidence of prophecy already fullfilled.
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/e...ecy-fulfilled/
Full blood Nikonian
Originally Posted by HoustonG
Short answer is the "already , not yet " comes from German scholarship during the 1700s,1800s and 1900's. It is a term that is used in an attempt to "save" face of failed prophecy or promises Jesus made regarding his immanent return in the first century.
A slightly more detailed answer can be found in these two videos.
1.
2.
If you would take the time to watch the several videos in the series "Last days according to Jesus" you will find a lot of questions that need to answered. Mr. Sproul IS NOT FULL PRETERIST, but he was considered a partial preterist.
Its the best series I have encountered in helping a student of Gods word understand in a basic form the problems that are encountered.
Enjoy
I'm not following you. Are you saying German scholars defined scripture to mean that? Since the words "now and yet to come" etc. Isn't the exact verbage used, I'm not understanding what you mean.
This was on my feed today on YouTube. Bart is no friend of Christianity, BUT, he at least knows the book of Revelation was not written to us in 2021 but rather to the first century audience.
I am a member of his blog site because he is a scholar and I have learned much from him. Just like the scholars Dr. Sproul mentions in the two videos above. Just because I don't agree with them on many things, I can learn from some of the things their scholarship provides.
ROFL , You didn't watch the two short videos did you ?
No, I haven't had time to watch those two short videos that add up to nearly 50 minutes. Are you unable to simply answer the question? I'm not asking for a novel.
isn't the exact verbiage used .........where ? Are you trying to say the phrase" now and yet to come " are in the bible ?
No, I'm saying they aren't in the bible. You said that verbiage came from German scholars a few centuries ago in an attempt to save face. My question is where is the verbiage you're talking about? Or are you talking about how they define scripture to mean that?
google is my friend too !
The theological concept of “already but not yet” holds that believers are actively taking part in the kingdom of God, although the kingdom will not reach its full expression until sometime in the future. We are “already” in the kingdom, but we do “not yet” see it in its glory. The “already but not yet” theology is related to kingdom theology or inaugurated eschatology.
The “already but not yet” paradigm was developed by Princeton theologian Gerhardus Vos early in the 20th century. In the 1950s George Eldon Ladd, a professor at Fuller Theological Seminary, argued that there are two meanings to the kingdom of God: 1) God’s authority and right to rule and 2) the realm in which God exercises His authority. The kingdom, then, is described in Scripture both as a realm presently entered and as one entered in the future. Ladd concluded that the kingdom of God is both present and future.
The “already but not yet” theology is popular among the Charismatics, for whom it provides a theological framework for present-day miracles. “Already but not yet” is officially embraced by the Vineyard Church and underpins many of their teachings.
There is a sense in which God’s kingdom is already in force. Hebrews 2:8–9 says, “At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him. But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death” (ESV). In this passage, we have a “now” (we see Jesus crowned with glory), and we have a “not yet” (not everything has been subjected to Christ). Jesus is the King, but His kingdom is not yet of this world (see John 18:36).
Also, in 1 John 3:2, we read, “Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.” Again, we have a “now” (we are the children of God), and we have a “not yet” (our future state). We are children of the King, but we must wait to see exactly what that entails.
Add to this the facts that Romans 8:30 says we are “glorified” and Ephesians 2:6 says we are seated with Christ “in the heavenly realms” as if these were completed acts. We don’t feel very glorified, most of the time, and our surroundings do not much resemble “heavenly realms.” That’s because the present spiritual reality does not yet match up with the future, physical reality. One day, the two will be in sync.
So, there is a biblical basis for the “already but not yet” system of interpretation. The problem comes when this paradigm is used to justify the prosperity gospel, name-it-claim-it teachings, and other heresies. The idea behind these teachings is that Christ’s kingdom is in full operation and that prayer can make it “break through” into our world. Evangelism is thought to “advance the kingdom.” And people are told they never need be sick or poor because the riches of the kingdom are available to them right now.
The Bible never speaks of “advancing the kingdom,” however. The kingdom will come (Luke 11:2). We must receive the kingdom (Mark 10:15). And the kingdom is currently “not of this world” (John 18:36). Jesus’ parables of the kingdom picture it as yeast in dough and a tree growing. In other words, the kingdom is slowly working toward an ultimate fulfillment. It is not sporadically “breaking through” to bring us comfort in this world.
The King Himself offered the kingdom to the Jews of the first century, but they rejected it (Matthew 12:22–28). One day, when Jesus returns, He will establish His kingdom on earth and fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah 51:3, “The LORD will surely comfort Zion and will look with compassion on all her ruins; he will make her deserts like Eden, her wastelands like the garden of the LORD. Joy and gladness will be found in her, thanksgiving and the sound of singing.” Until then, Jesus is building His church (Matthew 16:18) and using us for the glory of His name.
​ I am not saying I agree with everything in this article from "Got Questions"..................the article certainly contains bad theology.
But its a snapshot of what "already / not yet " believe when they read their bibles. It makes zero sense to me though or logical sense when you actually study.
Maybe the confusion came because of the period in the sentence after etc.
Inaugrated theology is the same as "already / not yet".
Examples :
We are saved.................but will receive a greater salvation
We are glorified........but we will be more glorified
The kingdom is here..............but it will be consumated in the future.
Jesus came in A.D. 70.....................but will come again at his final coming (3 comings now ? ugh, where is that in scripture).
We are counted sinless................one day we will be sinless
We are counted rightouse.................one day we will be righteous
blah blah blah blah .......................blah blah blah
Anything blah blah blah blah ........................... change definitions and time frame references, make it say whatever you like.
How about read what the bible actually "says" and either believe it, or deny it.
my edit : that last sentence of mine is NOT DIRECTED AT YOU. Its directed to Christianity as a whole.
Thanks for giving those examples. They kind of confirm what I was thinking when I read the quoted scripture in the article I linked earlier. I thought defining those to mean "now and yet to come" was weak and muddy at best.
Your last question could open up a Pandora's box. What if all the different camps in Christianity didn't exist? Because of that it's not nearly as simple as reading and either believing or not. The reality is that we read and think we understand it until somebody else tells us that it means something different altogether... X1000
Another example : I have written in the past about the "transition period" . From old covenant to New covenant. From Moses to Christ, "this age / the age to come"
The people who follow "already not yet / inaugurated eschatology " cant see or don't understand terms used in the bible.
For example, in post #10 of this thread, the article from "Got Questions" presents bible verses in defense of "already not yet" such as
Hebrews 2:8-9
1 John 3:2
Well of course Hebrews and 1 John seem to indicate a "already / not yet" theology. Guess what ? Jesus had not returned yet because those books were written prior to A.D.70. Did each of those two books teach a nearness time frame for the return of Jesus ? Of course they did, here Ill point a couple of verses in those two books that speak of it PLAINLY.
1 John 2:18 "Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.
Hebrews :
1. “God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son.” (Heb. 1:1-2)
2. “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who are about to inherit salvation?” (Heb. 1:14)
3. “…and have tasted …the powers of the age about to come.” (Heb. 6:5)
4. “When He said, ‘A new covenant,’ He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.” (Heb. 8:13)
5. “But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things about to come…” (Heb. 9:11)
6. “…as you see the Day drawing near.” (Heb. 10:25)
7. . “For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay.” (Heb. 10:37)
I think its very safe to say the example of "already not yet" in the above article hasn't read Hebrews or 1 john very closely.
The concept comes from " evolution " theory talked about during the enlightenment period (mainly German scholarship). When I say "evolution" don't think biologically but organically. It is explained in the two Dr. Sproul videos I have provided.
My edit : When we talk about Christian scholarship during the enlightenment period (and in todays time) , trust me, they were no friends of Christianity LOL.
What they were basically saying in a nutshell is this : Because the bible DOES TEACH A NEAR COMING OF CHRIST , and according to christianity Jesus has not returned to this date.................We (the church) EVOLVED (not biologically ) our teachings to make room for this Parousia Delay.
Its really sad
Last edited by godsdozer; 09-10-2021 at 06:38 PM.
The more I read about the evidence for and against preterism, the more I'm convinced that interpretations can be whatever a person wants them to be, and an entire belief structure can be built around those interpretations. I just finished reading another article that rebuts preterism and in it the author explains how the words "soon" and "quickly" are being misdefined by preterists. He says that preterists define the greek word for "quickly" as meaning "soon" when in fact it's talking about the sudden manner in which something will occur, not the time frame. It reminds me of the whole discussion of the words dead and die and how they refer to the physical in one verse and spiritural in another verse.
I guess the bible is like a box of legos. The blocks all look the same to everyone but everybody builds something different out of them.
Full blood Nikonian
Gotta ask...have all prophecies been fulfilled? Is it possible that there are other prophecies yet to be fulfilled? Not wanting to hijack the thread but wonder how people look at this.
Probably need to start another thread for I have many things to share and listen to (responses) about prophecies.
Sacred Heart of Mary, pray for us now, and at the hour of our death. AMEN
O blood and water which gush forth from the heart of Jesus, have mercy on us
For the sake of his sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and the whole world
Yes, start a new thread ! look forward to reading it.
When I read the bold portion of your response this morning .............................That was all I needed. You have no idea what I am referencing and rightly so, but thanks ! God is a good God and he has always been faithful even when I have not been.
A slightly cryptic response. Not sure if that's a nod of agreement or a head shake of disgust. It was just my honest opinion based on an abundance of evidence
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