Resurrection out of the dead ones #2

[godsdozer]

[godsdozer]

Houston, we had some good conversation in part 1 of this series. I am half way through watching this one.

If you choose to watch this video closely I think it will bring some more clarity as to why 1 Corinthians 15 is not talking about biological death or biological resurrection.

around the mid point of this video, you will see the argument presented by Paul and the Corinthian church.

[godsdozer]

For those who watch the video. Pay close attention to the biblical terms


1. The Sin
2. The Law
3. The Death
4. The Offense
5. Life of the Age (eternal life)
6. The Body of Sin

[HoustonG]

50+ minutes! Geeze dozer, can't you post a condensed version of say... 5 minutes? (Joking)
Sometimes I have the attention span of a 5 year old with ADHD.

[godsdozer]

50+ minutes! Geeze dozer, can't you post a condensed version of say... 5 minutes? (Joking)
Sometimes I have the attention span of a 5 year old with ADHD.

I could and have posted a 5minute condensed version.. But , then I am accused of "simplification "/ "slanting the bible to fit my narrative "


I am a ADHD champion myself. You can do it ! :)

[HoustonG]

I managed to corrall my ADHD long enough to finish the video.

All his points seen valid as well as the supporting scripture, but I'm far from a biblical scholar so I'm sure there are opposing views just as convincing. It's strange to me that we have to meticulously dissect verses to conclude what was actually meant by words as simple as death, dead, and die. One part of the video that magnifies that point is when he explains the words of jesus himself that appear to be contradictory. He said believers will "never die" but also referenced the same believers saying "though they may die." I understand the explanation that one referenced spiritual death while the other referenced physical death. It's one thing for us to sit here today trying to define words written several thousand years ago, in other languages, after being filtered through translations time and again, but that would have been confusing to those present at the time listening to jesus wouldn't it? Surely there could have been a different word to use considering the vastly different implications. Imagine your doctor saying to you, "Take this prescription and you'll not die" followed by "when you start taking this prescription you may die." Wouldn't that leave you wondering what the heck he meant?

It leaves me thinking we're all still just speculating and maybe defining as we choose. What exactly is the purpose of these videos? I get the impression that there's more to them than just defining physical death or physical resurrection vs spiritural. Is there a bigger point being made that has significance to us today? I assume those verses in 1st Corinthians are a source of disagreement among the christian community but what's the impact either way? Maybe I'm asking a dumb question but I never claimed to be the brightest bulb in the chandelier.

[godsdozer]

I managed to corrall my ADHD long enough to finish the video.

All his points seen valid as well as the supporting scripture, but I'm far from a biblical scholar so I'm sure there are opposing views just as convincing. It's strange to me that we have to meticulously dissect verses to conclude what was actually meant by words as simple as death, dead, and die. One part of the video that magnifies that point is when he explains the words of jesus himself that appear to be contradictory. He said believers will "never die" but also referenced the same believers saying "thought they may die." I understand the explanation that one referenced spiritual death while the other referenced physical death. It's one thing for us to sit here today trying to define words written several thousand years ago, in other languages, after being filtered through translations time and again, but that would have been confusing to those present at the time listening to jesus wouldn't it? Surely there could have been a different word to use considering the vastly different implications. Imagine your doctor saying to you, "Take this prescription and you'll not die" followed by "when you start taking this prescription you may die." Wouldn't that leave you wondering what the heck he meant?

It leaves me thinking we're all still just speculating and maybe defining as we choose. What exactly is the purpose of these videos? I get the impression that there's more to them than just defining physical death or physical resurrection vs spiritural. Is there a bigger point being made that has significance to us today? I assume those verses in 1st Corinthians are a source of disagreement among the christian community but what's the impact either way? Maybe I'm asking a dumb question but I never claimed to be the brightest bulb in the chandelier.

Here are few things that matter when it comes to studying the "Last Days"/ "Eschatology"

1. How many end time cults have popped up and ruined peoples live ? David Koresh ? Jonestown ? Just to name a couple.

2. If you will examine a broad picture of American (supposed Christian nation founded on Christian beliefs and principles ) foreign policy , you will see the $$$$ billions/trillions spent in the middle east protecting and partnering with Israel (Gods chosen people ?) , you know its the Jews land , right, God promised it to them them , right, forever , right ? The 10's of thousands of people slaughtered in war over there ? The displacement of families and hatred and animosity that has been created towards us because of some of our policies . Dont you know Armageddon is gonna be fought over there in the last days ?, right ? . Lets see, how many preachers since 1948 (when Israel became a nation again) have asked the church to fill offering plates up so we can send Jews back to their rightful land , right ? Lets see, if Armageddon is really gonna happen over there according to most of Christianity, why are we sending people back to get slaughtered in some so called end of the world scenario, that makes a lot of sense doesn't it , right ? Lets see how many Christian dollars have been wasted on scary fictional end time books , shall we ? Da vinci code 80 million copies, Left behind series 80 million, Late Great Planet Earth 50 million just to name a few. How many Christian albums / songs are filled false lyrics about the return of Christ or a Great White Throne judgment that is supposedly coming ? I could go on and on and on.

3. Why polish brass on a sinking ship ? If the Church understood that all prophesy has been fulfilled instead of a sinking doomy and gloomy end of the world senerio..........................what would that do for our outlook ? What if the earth is not going to come to some burning crashing end with death and famine and Armageddon ? Instead of complaining how bad everything is (brass needs polishing) we start running for school board positions to change the direction of the schools our future leaders are attending. How about filling up our County employees , mayors, city council offices, judges with real Christian leaders to help shape and form our future ? No, lets not do something such as polish brass, lets be lazy because you know the world isn't gonna get any better because the bible says its not, right ? The bible says "the love of most will grow cold , right ? The ship is sinking so don't bother, right ?


4. The bible contains the Gospel that word means "good news". A correct eschatology actually contains good news.

[godsdozer]

I will super simplify one point from above .

he United Nations approved a plan to partition Palestine into a Jewish and Arab state in 1947, but the Arabs rejected it.
"In May 1948, Israel was officially declared an independent state with David Ben-Gurion, the head of the Jewish Agency, as the prime minister.
While this historic event seemed to be a victory for Jews, it also marked the beginning of more violence with Arabs."

Here is my point,

1. One day some Europeans decided to give the Jews some land in Palestine.
2. The Jewish nation were given Caterpillar D9s and began bulldozing the Palestinians houses over and runing them out of Israel.
3. Of course this caused strained relations / hatred / war to this day.

Now, us nice Christian westernized people agree with what happend above because the bible says in the last days its the jews nation. After all , when Jesus comes back, he is gonna set up his throne right there in the city of Jerusalem , right ? I mean thats what us nice Christians are taught and believe. As we sit over here in our country in a completely different setting (no its not perfect, but we dont have rockets flying into our cities each and every year).

Lets turn the tables for a second.

Lets say next year, China or Russia or some other country says the native Indians (they were here first, its their land, the gods they believe in said so) are to get half of America. So , they, the Indians get some Caterpillar bulldozers and began plowing down our houses and business' ect.............do you think there would be much peace here in America if that happened ?

[HoustonG]

Here are few things that matter when it comes to studying the "Last Days"/ "Eschatology"

1. How many end time cults have popped up and ruined peoples live ? David Koresh ? Jonestown ? Just to name a couple.

2. If you will examine a broad picture of American (supposed Christian nation founded on Christian beliefs and principles ) foreign policy , you will see the $$$$ billions/trillions spent in the middle east protecting and partnering with Israel (Gods chosen people ?) , you know its the Jews land , right, God promised it to them them , right, forever , right ? The 10's of thousands of people slaughtered in war over there ? The displacement of families and hatred and animosity that has been created towards us because of some of our policies . Dont you know Armageddon is gonna be fought over there in the last days ?, right ? . Lets see, how many preachers since 1948 (when Israel became a nation again) have asked the church to fill offering plates up so we can send Jews back to their rightful land , right ? Lets see, if Armageddon is really gonna happen over there according to most of Christianity, why are we sending people back to get slaughtered in some so called end of the world scenario, that makes a lot of sense doesn't it , right ? Lets see how many Christian dollars have been wasted on scary fictional end time books , shall we ? Da vinci code 80 million copies, Left behind series 80 million, Late Great Planet Earth 50 million just to name a few. How many Christian albums / songs are filled false lyrics about the return of Christ or a Great White Throne judgment that is supposedly coming ? I could go on and on and on.

3. Why polish brass on a sinking ship ? If the Church understood that all prophesy has been fulfilled instead of a sinking doomy and gloomy end of the world senerio..........................what would that do for our outlook ? What if the earth is not going to come to some burning crashing end with death and famine and Armageddon ? Instead of complaining how bad everything is (brass needs polishing) we start running for school board positions to change the direction of the schools our future leaders are attending. How about filling up our County employees , mayors, city council offices, judges with real Christian leaders to help shape and form our future ? No, lets not do something such as polish brass, lets be lazy because you know the world isn't gonna get any better because the bible says its not, right ? The bible says "the love of most will grow cold , right ? The ship is sinking so don't bother, right ?


4. The bible contains the Gospel that word means "good news". A correct eschatology actually contains good news.

Dozer, you need to stop sugar coating everything and beating around the bush...just say what you mean! lol

All really good points. I think #1 is a little bit of a stretch to suggest people followed Jim Jones or Koresh because of what? Because they had been mislead by traditional teachings of the second coming and end times? Those people were inclined to follow men regardless of how many screws their leader had loose. They would have "sipped the koolaid" regardless of what they were being told, but that's just my opinion.

As for the US-Israel relationship, that's always puzzled me on all fronts. The traditional idea that the US backing israel is based on christian beliefs makes me raise an eyebrow when you see some of our domestic policies and the people who somehow keep getting elected. We sure don't appear to be a country trying to please god in many other ways.

Dozer, I know you're a mod so need I remind you that the BBC boards explicitly forbid political discussions? They prefer we keep it focused on religion so that there's no disagreement...

[HoustonG]

I will super simplify one point from above .

he United Nations approved a plan to partition Palestine into a Jewish and Arab state in 1947, but the Arabs rejected it.
"In May 1948, Israel was officially declared an independent state with David Ben-Gurion, the head of the Jewish Agency, as the prime minister.
While this historic event seemed to be a victory for Jews, it also marked the beginning of more violence with Arabs."

Here is my point,

1. One day some Europeans decided to give the Jews some land in Palestine.
2. The Jewish nation were given Caterpillar D9s and began bulldozing the Palestinians houses over and runing them out of Israel.
3. Of course this caused strained relations / hatred / war to this day.

Now, us nice Christian westernized people agree with what happend above because the bible says in the last days its the jews nation. After all , when Jesus comes back, he is gonna set up his throne right there in the city of Jerusalem , right ? I mean thats what us nice Christians are taught and believe. As we sit over here in our country in a completely different setting (no its not perfect, but we dont have rockets flying into our cities each and every year).

Lets turn the tables for a second.

Lets say next year, China or Russia or some other country says the native Indians (they were here first, its their land, the gods they believe in said so) are to get half of America. So , they, the Indians get some Caterpillar bulldozers and began plowing down our houses and business' ect.............do you think there would be much peace here in America if that happened ?

I might add that in 1948 when the UN partitioned land between Israel and the Palestinians, Israel annexed land far beyond the agreed upon boundaries.

[godsdozer]

Dozer, you need to stop sugar coating everything and beating around the bush...just say what you mean! lol

All really good points. I think #1 is a little bit of a stretch to suggest people followed Jim Jones or Koresh because of what? Because they had been mislead by traditional teachings of the second coming and end times? Those people were inclined to follow men regardless of how many screws their leader had loose. They would have "sipped the koolaid" regardless of what they were being told, but that's just my opinion.

As for the US-Israel relationship, that's always puzzled me on all fronts. The traditional idea that the US backing israel is based on christian beliefs makes me raise an eyebrow when you see some of our domestic policies and the people who somehow keep getting elected. We sure don't appear to be a country trying to please god in many other ways.

Dozer, I know you're a mod so need I remind you that the BBC boards explicitly forbid political discussions? They prefer we keep it focused on religion so that there's no disagreement...

Hilarious my friend ! ( actually laughed when I read it)

[HoustonG]

So your opinion is that the world would be a more peaceful place if christianity would more broadly embrace the idea that all prophecy has been fulfilled? Without the anticipation of upheaval, trials and tribulations, and all the drama that precedes traditional teachings of the second coming, we could all take a deep breath and relax so to speak? And like the example you gave of US involvement in the middle east, there would be no reason for world leaders to try to "participate" in prophecy they think is still to come?

I honestly don't know with any certainty which belief is right and which is wrong. In a private message conversation some time ago, you presented me with a mountain of supporting scripture that was very eye opening. I read words and verses I've heard all my life yet had interpreted them differently because that's how it was always taught to me. I'm sure opposing views would show scripture supporting their beliefs too. I can say with absolute certainty that I'm uncertain.

I've mentioned before that I'm not affiliated with any church, so I have no allegiance. Sometimes the discussions here remind me of why that works best for me. If I had to choose one belief over another, it would be much more comforting to know that all that was prophesied has already happened. Why would anyone want it to be any other way?

When I see people refuse to even crack the door open to the possibility that their traditional teachings could be wrong, I marvel at why that is? There isn't definitive proof either way, just opinions and different interpretations. Why not open your mind to the possibility even if it clashes with the teachings you've invested so much time in? So what if it raises a few eyebrows in the congregation? Shouldn't the pursuit of truth be more important than compliance? Nobody wants to admit it, but the social excersise of church can be a negative thing in some regards. It can be a form of intoxication to have a group of people admire you and respect you because you're one of them. You can easily wake up one day going through the motions of church and just following the approved script.

I know that sounded like an anti-church rant, but it really wasn't. I'm just saying don't close your mind just because you love your church.

[godsdozer]

So your opinion is that the world would be a more peaceful place if christianity would more broadly embrace the idea that all prophecy has been fulfilled? Without the anticipation of upheaval, trials and tribulations, and all the drama that precedes traditional teachings of the second coming, we could all take a deep breath and relax so to speak? And like the example you gave of US involvement in the middle east, there would be no reason for world leaders to try to "participate" in prophecy they think is still to come?

I honestly don't know with any certainty which belief is right and which is wrong. In a private message conversation some time ago, you presented me with a mountain of supporting scripture that was very eye opening. I read words and verses I've heard all my life yet had interpreted them differently because that's how it was always taught to me. I'm sure opposing views would show scripture supporting their beliefs too. I can say with absolute certainty that I'm uncertain.

I've mentioned before that I'm not affiliated with any church, so I have no allegiance. Sometimes the discussions here remind me of why that works best for me. If I had to choose one belief over another, it would be much more comforting to know that all that was prophesied has already happened. Why would anyone want it to be any other way?

When I see people refuse to even crack the door open to the possibility that their traditional teachings could be wrong, I marvel at why that is? There isn't definitive proof either way, just opinions and different interpretations. Why not open your mind to the possibility even if it clashes with the teachings you've invested so much time in? So what if it raises a few eyebrows in the congregation? Shouldn't the pursuit of truth be more important than compliance? Nobody wants to admit it, but the social excersise of church can be a negative thing in some regards. It can be a form of intoxication to have a group of people admire you and respect you because you're one of them. You can easily wake up one day going through the motions of church and just following the approved script.

I know that sounded like an anti-church rant, but it really wasn't. I'm just saying don't close your mind just because you love your church.

good points, and good observations