I highly recommend these two books. Take it for what its worth
1. Exegetical Essays on the Resurrection: Samuel M. Frost, Don K. Preston: Amazon.com: Books
2. 70 Weeks Are Determined for: The Resurrection: Preston D.Div., Don K.: 9780979933776: Amazon.com: Books
Houston , In post #3 of this thread you said : I would say he didn't die in either form.
I am not sure why you and are discussing resurrection if you believe Jesus never died . I'm kinda stumped.
In a condensed form....................Mr. Bell makes several resounding points regarding the key text in question namely 1 Corinthians 15, and that 1 Corinthians 15 can not be talking about physical bodies.
The biblical text mentioned in this video makes no logical sense if you pay close attention to the many bible verses including Daniel, Romans , Acts, Psalms, Galatians to name a few which give you the context from which Paul teaches in 1 Corinthians 15 regarding resurrection.
Last edited by godsdozer; 09-05-2021 at 10:32 PM.
The two Greek words in question are Soma and Sarx. The two books I have mentioned go into great detail of how the Old and New Testaments use those two words.
Originally Posted by godsdozer
It was this quote that insinuates you don't believe resurrection referred to the physical. You specified resurrection as it pertains to the second coming, that's why I asked if you were defining the two differently.traditional definitions of Resurrection (physical bodies flying out of the ground at the second comming of Christ) doesnt support what various bible passages actually say
Maybe you misunderstood or didn't read my full response. In a nut shell, if he lives today and did return physically, how can you say he died? I asked the question already; did you really die if you didn't stay dead? If you're not dead right now, did you actually die? If he was alive spiritually after physical death, which he obviously was since he joined the dead ones in hades, then he didn't die spiritually. His body was raised and seen by others so he didn't die physically either, hence my answer: I would say he didn't die in either form.
I see. Let me try to clarify.
1. When we read the bible it was written too and about people living in what the bible called "This Age". In other words, the Age of Moses or the Age of the law.
2. The prophets in the OT looked forward to and prophesied about a "Age to come"
3. Jesus shows up on the scene and he begins talking about the "kingdom of God" . It is no Jewish secret, the Kingdom of God was a part of the Jewish kingdom which would come when messiah came to set up his rule and reign /kingdom in the "Age to come".
4. Jesus is crucified, buried and raised from the dead to show that he was the messiah and his death and resurrection would provide freedom for the captives that had previously died "in this Age / Law of Moses Age" . Jesus empties out hades were those souls of the dead had been kept.
5. Jesus returns to the Father but has promised to his disciples that he would return (second appearing, second coming) within their lifetime.
6. The Apostles then go around preaching about " the age to come / Kingdom of God / Eternal life / Resurrection / Righteousness / Justification on on and on " which would occur at the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70AD. Read Matthew 24:1-3 Very Closely
7. The period between the ages (this age and the age to come ) is often referred to as the transition period from Old covenant to New covenant. You can see the transition period plainly if you read the new testament. They were transitioning from Moses to Christ, from old covenant to new covenant, from old wine skin to new wine skins ect ect ect. We see this in 2 Peter 1:19 "So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. You can see they were patiently waiting "until the day dawns" and the "morning star rises in your hearts "
8. We read in Galations chapter 5 vs. 5 : 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. Those in the transition period from Old Covenant to New Covenant were still waiting by faith for "righteousness" . If Christ accomplished it at the cross, why are they still waiting on it ?
9. If you know the new testament...................you know why Christ second appearing / second coming was to tear down the old and usher in new covenant life in him.
Last edited by godsdozer; 09-05-2021 at 05:57 PM.
10. Hebrews 7:19
For the law never made anything perfect. But now we have confidence in a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
Your post explains the purpose of the resurrection, but doesn't address the question of whether it was spiritual, physical, both, or neither. There's still the question of if the thief and Jesus were together immediately after crucifixion. Both in hades? Both in paradise?I see. Let me try to clarify.
1. When we read the bible it was written too and about people living in what the bible called "This Age". In other words, the Age of Moses or the Age of the law.
2. The prophets in the OT looked forward to and prophesied about a "Age to come"
3. Jesus shows up on the scene and he begins talking about the "kingdom of God" . It is no Jewish secret, the Kingdom of God was a part of the Jewish kingdom which would come when messiah came to set up his rule and reign /kingdom in the "Age to come".
4. Jesus is crucified, buried and raised from the dead to show that he was the messiah and his death and resurrection would provide freedom for the captives that had previously died "in this Age / Law of Moses Age" . Jesus empties out hades were those souls of the dead had been kept.
5. Jesus returns to the Father but has promised to his disciples that he would return (second appearing, second coming) within their lifetime.
6. The Apostles then go around preaching about " the age to come / Kingdom of God / Eternal life / Resurrection / Righteousness / Justification on on and on " which would occur at the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70AD. Read Matthew 24:1-3 Very Closely
7. The period between the ages (this age and the age to come ) is often referred to as the transition period from Old covenant to New covenant. You can see the transition period plainly if you read the new testament. They were transitioning from Moses to Christ, from old covenant to new covenant, from old wine skin to new wine skins ect ect ect. We see this in 2 Peter 1:19 "So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. You can see they were patiently waiting "until the day dawns" and the "morning star rises in your hearts "
8. We read in Galations chapter 5 vs. 5 : 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. Those in the transition period from Old Covenant to New Covenant were still waiting by faith for "righteousness" . If Christ accomplished it at the cross, why are they still waiting on it ?
9. If you know the new testament...................you know why Christ second appearing / second coming was to tear down the old and usher in new covenant life in him.
Haha. You crack me up but I will continue.
In post #26 you said this : In a nut shell, if he lives today and did return physically, how can you say he died? I asked the question already; did you really die if you didn't stay dead? If you're not dead right now, did you actually die? If he was alive spiritually after physical death, which he obviously was since he joined the dead ones in hades, then he didn't die spiritually. His body was raised and seen by others so he didn't die physically either, hence my answer: I would say he didn't die in either form.
You have denied the very core of Christianity with those highlighted statements. Resurrection of the Christ is the heart of the gospel. Its the heart of Old Testament prophecy regarding the Age to Come , Messianic Kingdom ect.
But I will try for the last time to answer your question (the way you want it answered).
1. A man about 2,000 years ago certainly died on a cross "outside" of Jerusalem. According to the Bible and other historians of that era his name was Jesus. Please read Josephus and Tacitus (they were no friends of Jesus).
2. That man named Jesus claimed to be the messiah of Israel and eventually would become the messiah of all peoples.
3. That man (Jesus) died physically on the cross , along with two other men.
4. Jesus' physical body was buried in a tomb with rock placed in front of it.
5. The bible says "1 Peter 3:19–20 "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."
5. Ephesians 4 :7-10 But each one of us was given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8Therefore God says, ‘When he ascended on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men.’ 9But this, ‘He ascended’ —didn'the also first descend into the lower parts of the earth? 10He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.
​ 6. According to the bible, Jesus rose physically from the dead. The rock was rolled away, and he appeared to others. (feel the nail prints of my hand).
7. According to the bible, others (more than 500) physically rose from the dead when Jesus rose from the dead. ( later in the N.T. , some of those who rose physically from the dead later died again (physically ).
8. Your question about the thief.......................... Was Jesus, God in the flesh ?
Pslams 139.........................Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there. even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast. even the darkness will not be dark to you; the night will shine like the day, for darkness is as light to you.
I can be silly and ask.........................can God make a rock so big, he cant lift it ?
Houston, In post #26 You said this : If he was alive spiritually after physical death, which he obviously was since he joined the dead ones in hades, then he didn't die spiritually.
Does Sin (according to the bible ) cause death ? Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." What kind of death, spiritual or physical or both ? :)
Did Jesus become sin for us ? 2 Corinthians 5:21 "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." When God made him to be sin for us...............did Jesus become and bear our sins ?
This is why I posted in post #2.................................how did he die ? Just physcially or spiritually too ?
I have personally struggled with this question for doctrinal reasons for many decades.......................Maybe some don't understand my original question and its implications on many pet doctrines of the Church.
If Jesus was God in the flesh , in some form or fashion, depending on your particular view or "Christology" (study of Christ)" or "Theology" (study of God) proper ..................................
God is Eternal, Everlasting , has no beginning or end, Alpha Omega ......................ect
Can God die ? Can God bring himself back to life ?
Was Christ a ordinary man "chosen by God" to be...............................many things ? If that is the case.................many bible passages become problematic ............
I'm glad my persistence gave you a chuckle. At least it finally lead to somewhat clearer answers. You're earlier statements were basically talking around the perimeter of the question without really giving your opinion. So in summation, you feel that the thief was with Jesus and that no matter where that place was it was Paradise because Jesus / God was there. Fair enough.
My statement that he died in neither way is only supported by the fact that he was risen both physically and spiritually. It ties into my question of "did you die if you don't stay dead?" Yes, I know that's a question that we're not supposed to ask, but when I hear people emotionally say that God loved us sooooo much that he sent his son to die for us, I can't help but acknowledge that he didn't stay dead. So was it really a sacrifice? Or was it simply symbolic? Even then my broader question was why was it necessary? Why was such an act needed when the same thing could be accomplished simply by a command from God.
I know those are tough questions and ones that we're never supposed to ask, but they're still appropriate. Not everything can be answered by reciting a Sunday school Bible story or by smoke screening.
Dozer, you may ride atop 100,000 lbs of steel, but something tells me you moonlight as a car salesman. Lol
And I mean that in a complimentary way.
Houston, for me.....................no question is out of bounds, tough or unfair as it relates to trying to understand our future , the bible or God.
I appreciate our conversations as long as they don't turn into name calling or personal attacks . Christianity , along with all other religions have tough questions to answer . And as you have stated, sometimes Sunday School answers just don't cut it. (2 Peter 3:16).
I will leave you with this for something to ponder on :
You keep using terms such as "dying", "die", "dead", resurrection (not staying dead) ect
This is why definitions matter. If I am understanding your use of the above terms it seems to me it is the same "Sunday School " answers you learned while being trained /indoctrinated in a church setting, correct ? You are defining the above words strictly in a biological.​ manner. I was raised the same way.
What if the bible is not talking about biological death ? (Remember, I fully believe Jesus died biologically on a cross and was biologically resurrected we can discuss that later in more detail in a different thread )
Read Genesis closely (the adam and eve story). The punishment God gave after they "sinned" / "disobeyed" was NOT BIOLOGICAL but rather it was spiritual death or anther term would be "separation from God" or "kicked out of the Garden" or " or God would no longer walk with them in the cool of day" in other words adam and eve would "die" that day.
Genesis 2:17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for on the day that you eat from it you will certainly die.”
"die" is used here in the text. It wasn't biological death they suffered "on the day" . Biologically they lived 900 more years.
I should add this, when we read the term grave or death or sheol or hades ect .................................our definitions for those terms may be skewed and or influenced by our Western upbringing. I keep saying over and over
THIS IS A VERY JEWISH BOOK WE ARE READING AND TRYING TO UNDERSTAND.
The issue / problem recorded and talked about in the bible is not warts, pimples, poor eye sight, wrinkled skin, cancer, old age ect . but it is "sin" and "separation from God" .
Now some might say : but Jesus healed the blind (physically), made the lame walk (physically) ect . Yes Jesus did those things many more.......................it was to show supernaturally he was the Jewish Messiah that they might believe in the one who was sent to take away the "sins of the whole world" . To the Jew first, then to the gentile.
Another post mysteriously disappears. Are you censoring me dozer??
Ok, let me try this again.
I have no reason to debate how the word death was intended biblically. You're way more versed in the history and translations that I am. You are correct that I use the term in a biological sense. I think we all do because that's how we experience death. It is physical and emotional, but we don't really see spiritual death.
My statements about death and if it really is death if it lacks finality, was tied into my comment about sacrifice. Are you really sacrificing something if you don't lose it? Maybe it's the word sacrifice that needs to be defined, but as you said, that may be the Western influence in me coming out.
I just got home , NO Im not LOL
[QUOTE=HoustonG;12074057]Ok, let me try this again.
I have no reason to debate how the word death was intended biblically. You're way more versed in the history and translations that I am. You are correct that I use the term in a biological sense. I think we all do because that's how we experience death. It is physical and emotional, but we don't really see spiritual death.
My statements about death and if it really is death if it lacks finality, was tied into my comment about sacrifice. Are you really sacrificing something if you don't lose it? Maybe it's the word sacrifice that needs to be defined, but as you said, that may be the Western influence in me coming out.[/QUOTE
Just off the top of my head with not much thought into it I would answer something like this.
I don't know what Holy is............I don't know what Perfect is...........I don't know what Pure is.............I don't know what God is.......... because I am non of those things in a physical / biological sense. As a matter of fact I am probably the opposite in most instances. Even the good things I may do I probably have selfish motives for doing them.
So for me to understand how or why God (who is supposed to be those things above and many more) came in human flesh (physically / biological) and BECAME SIN FOR US is just beyond me. Why did he set it up all this way ? I have no clue because I am none of the above things.
2 Corinthians 5:21 "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."
If I put it in human terms that my brain might be able understand to some degree here it goes :
When I was a kid and set up plastic army men on the battle field in my room to play with I got to place them wherever I wanted to, pick who won and who lost, pick how they won and how they lost, I got to pick the last one standing ect. In other words since I was the creator of the game I got to pick and choose how the game was played.
​ I doubt God gets mad at us for asking the why questions in most instances. But there are some things on this side of physical life we just wont know.
As I write this I am reminded of the book of Joel when they were asking a bunch of Questions regarding life and God ect. Here is a sample of what God said, its pretty humbling if you think about what is written.
Job 38
Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said:2“Who is this who obscures My counselby words without knowledge?a3Now brace yourselfb like a man;I will question you, and you shall inform Me.c4Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?Tell Me, if you have understanding.5Who fixed its measurements? Surely you know!Or who stretched a measuring line across it?6On what were its foundations set,or who laid its cornerstone,d7while the morning stars sang togetherand all the sons of God shouted for joy?8Who enclosed the sea behind doorswhen it burst forth from the womb,9when I made the clouds its garmentand thick darkness its blanket,10when I fixed its boundariesand set in place its bars and doors,11and I declared: ‘You may come this far, but no farther;here your proud waves must stop’?12In your days, have you commanded the morningor assigned the dawn its place,13that it might spread to the ends of the earthand shake the wicked out of it?14The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;its hills stand out like the folds of a garment.15Light is withheld from the wicked,and their upraised arm is broken.16Have you journeyed to the vents of the seaor walked in the trenches of the deep?17Have the gates of death been revealed to you?Have you seen the gates of the shadow of death?18Have you surveyed the extent of the earth?Tell Me, if you know all this.19Where is the way to the home of light?Do you know where darkness resides,20so you can lead it back to its border?Do you know the paths to its home?21Surely you know, for you were already born!And the number of your days is great!22Have you entered the storehouses of snowor observed the storehouses of hail,23which I hold in reserve for times of trouble,for the day of war and battle?24In which direction is the lightning dispersed,or the east wind scattered over the earth?25Who cuts a channel for the floodor clears a path for the thunderbolt,26to bring rain on a barren land,on a desert where no man lives,27to satisfy the parched wastelandand make it sprout with tender grass?28Does the rain have a father?Who has begotten the drops of dew?29From whose womb does the ice emerge?Who gives birth to the frost from heaven,30when the waters become hard as stoneand the surface of the deep is frozen?31Can you bind the chains of the Pleiadesor loosen the belt of Orion?32Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasonseor lead out the Bearf and her cubs?33Do you know the laws of the heavens?Can you set their dominion over the earth?34Can you command the cloudsso that a flood of water covers you?35Can you send the lightning bolts on their way?Do they report to you, ‘Here we are’?36Who has put wisdom in the heartgor given understanding to the mind?37Who has the wisdom to count the clouds?Or who can tilt the water jars of the heavens38when the dust hardens into a massand the clods of earth stick together?39Can you hunt the prey for a lionessor satisfy the hunger of young lions40when they crouch in their densand lie in wait in the thicket?41Who provides food for the ravenwhen its young cry out to Godas they wander about for lack of food?
I study my tail off in an attempt to understand a book that was not written to me (but for me in some respects) not written in a language I speak, read or write, not written to a culture I am familiar with , written to those who were under a law (law of Moses) I was never under but at some point God decided to include gentiles...................that makes me interested because I have found the book very reliable and trustworthy in so many historical ways.
But in the end.................its about "faith".
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