LiveScope Ghost Tree Observations and Comments

[hudsonroostertail]

Having experienced the Ghost Tree effect and reading many other user’s comments on many different forums, I was curious if it could be analyzed and explained as to what might be going on with the data. To that end, the attached PDF file seems to be helpful in understanding it. Please note that no new user corrective actions are being suggested or presented. Read it if you are curious and have time. Wanted to believe it was an overlooked processing software error but pretty sure it really is an element of the raw data that comes mostly from hard bottom reflections back down from the surface that has been previously identified as the cause. Not yet shared with Garmin but probably nothing new to their Engineers. Mainly a commentary on what is probably happening. Don’t get a brain cramp trying to understand all of it because the Ghost Tree most likely is always going to be lurking around in LiveScope.

[Ray_Hubbard]

I tip my hat on your analysis!

[bassboat1]

Thanks for the writeup!

[LWINCHESTER2]

I thought the original Panoptix was phased array and LiveScope frequency steered.......as if I know the difference.

[TOUCH OF CLASS]

All I can tell you after the original software and than the perspective update something in the system changed .I live on a lake so it was a matter of 24 hours after my last outing to the update that we saw immediately the mess up.Did the original have better ghost tree reject software? probably but can’t prove it other than what we saw first hand.

[pfisher]

All I can tell you after the original software and than the perspective update something in the system changed .I live on a lake so it was a matter of 24 hours after my last outing to the update that we saw immediately the mess up.Did the original have better ghost tree reject software? probably but can’t prove it other than what we saw first hand.

I had my perspective mount installed and went to the lake. The first pile I pulled up to in forward mode I thought something was wrong with my settings. After 30 minutes of messing with them I went fishing and did the best I could. Once I got home and looked at a few forums I knew my being so impatient to try perspective mode was a big mistake. Hours on the phone, and a new LS unit, Garmin still refuses to admit their software is the issue.

[Royt]

I agree with both of the 2 post above this!

[JOE54]

All I can tell you after the original software and than the perspective update something in the system changed .I live on a lake so it was a matter of 24 hours after my last outing to the update that we saw immediately the mess up.Did the original have better ghost tree reject software? probably but can’t prove it other than what we saw first hand.

+ 1^^^^^^ my 126sv worked fine until updated , is there no way to roll it back

[hudsonroostertail]

Thanks for the feedback. I’m on board with yours and many others real world observations that the Ghost Tree seemed to pop up more after introduction of Perspective view. I have no factual knowledge of what is going on behind the curtains of Garmin's software, just pre-retirement work experience educated guesses. I’m still of the opinion that the possibility of a raw data ghost tree element has been there from the beginning but maybe better suppressed by pre-Perspective software. Speculating here but think the goal of reading smaller targets at further distances may have caused changes in transmit power and receiver gain tables. Don’t really know, but in general would think higher transmit power levels are more likely to produce it in the raw data and higher receiver gains more likely to display it on the screen. Might be where software versions differ, possibly primarily the transmitter power which until ghost tree reject the user had no control over besides the embedded software settings. Don’t know how much transmit power can actually be varied. Filtering out GT may be a fine balance with creating a dead spot and losing desired target information. Just another opinion. Believe we are all collectively on the same page of building pressure on Garmin to optimize Livescope to what it is promoted to be and what many users feel it used to be. Personally I wouldn't miss Perspective if that was the price to pay to get a more ghost tree free forward view presentation.

[nbkirsch]

Yes, you can roll back. However, you should read all the threads on this issue. I have installed the latest version, I think 2.54, and it really improved my scope.

[pfisher]

Thanks for the feedback. I’m on board with yours and many others real world observations that the Ghost Tree seemed to pop up more after introduction of Perspective view. I have no factual knowledge of what is going on behind the curtains of Garmin's software, just pre-retirement work experience educated guesses. I’m still of the opinion that the possibility of a raw data ghost tree element has been there from the beginning but maybe better suppressed by pre-Perspective software. Speculating here but think the goal of reading smaller targets at further distances may have caused changes in transmit power and receiver gain tables. Don’t really know, but in general would think higher transmit power levels are more likely to produce it in the raw data and higher receiver gains more likely to display it on the screen. Might be where software versions differ, possibly primarily the transmitter power which until ghost tree reject the user had no control over besides the embedded software settings. Don’t know how much transmit power can actually be varied. Filtering out GT may be a fine balance with creating a dead spot and losing desired target information. Just another opinion. Believe we are all collectively on the same page of building pressure on Garmin to optimize Livescope to what it is promoted to be and what many users feel it used to be. Personally I wouldn't miss Perspective if that was the price to pay to get a more ghost tree free forward view presentation.

I could see smaller targets with the original software. I could also see my baits at a distance with much less issue. I don't program but employ a couple of programmers. One of them saw both before and after images and his comments was, "You would fire me for that." I wouldn't really but I got his point......

[RangrSkipr]

Believe we are all collectively on the same page of building pressure on Garmin to optimize Livescope to what it is promoted to be and what many users feel it used to be. Personally I wouldn't miss Perspective if that was the price to pay to get a more ghost tree free forward view presentation.

Ditto this comment ^^^ and thanks for sharing the great analogy hudson. As excited as I was to see the perspective launch it's been a bit of a disappointment to me and I use it maybe .05% of the time I'm on the water. I see a lot of shadows of fish but don't see the fish (how is that possible?) The only lures I can briefly pickup are a crank, jerk, swim or spinner bait. As soon as it passes through the beam it's come and gone. Your explanation of the processing of raw or internal data is spot on in my opinion. As easy as you made it to understand, you would think Garmin can and will figure it out, but it sure makes you scratch your head wondering why they haven't. A simple "these are our findings and we're working on it" statement from the folks at Garmin would go a long way in satisfying the consumer. Makes you wonder if their findings aren't going to result in the launch and production of more expensive "new and improved" v2 equipment. With almost 6K invested in my two year old equipment I will not be throwing more money at a product without some trade in or exchange consideration.