The schism began over a prayer Augustine wrote in the 4th century : Command what thou will, and grant us what thou commands.
Some receive Grace, some receive Justice , but no one receives Injustice. Humanism has certainly been a thorn in the church when it comes to the Gospel.
What are your thoughts ?
Bonus study for those who are interested.
Not to wax philosophical, but ALL human beings have free will according to their nature. This is a fact about our nature that anyone can observe. To deny it exists proves the point. Free will exists whether or not any Government or Religion denies it or not. Perhaps this forum may not be a good place to debate such a topic, but I was a Christian for 20 years. I am now an Objectivist. My wife is still a Christian and we have no issues on our different beliefs. We have been married for almost 30 years and met in a bible fellowship. Choosing what you believe is also an expression of free will choice. Even though I do not believe in God, I would fight to the death to protect the right to choose either.
Originally Posted by CDFord
Good morning ! I appreciate your comment and encourage all discussion from Atheist to whatever flavor. I do not make up the rules on what can be be talked about in the faith forum, that's CajunBass arena. :)
Two questions,
1. Did you watch both videos ?
2. What were the major influences in your departure from Christianity to Objectionism.
I watched enough of both of them to know the subject and rationale that is presented. I have heard them before. The premise all these hold is that of faith over reason. I dismiss that premise. Faith is that which one holds without evidence. usually demanded by either a real or imaginary authority. Please do not think I am bashing Christianity or any other religion. I am providing my honest answer since you are kind enough to ask. I respect your beliefs as I do all others. That does not mean I agree with them. I am a scientist/engineer in my career. I have always believed in reason and logic as man's tool to understand how to survive and thrive in life. A baby born into this world must learn how to think in order to survive. He/she cannot eat a meal without the knowledge of what food is and how to attain it. Man has no instincts like animals do. He must learn to think. Reason is his only tool for knowledge. His real choice is to think, or not to think. If he/she chooses not to think, that is free will choice. But someone has to think to keep him/her alive.
My influences for departure from Christianity were the results of continuing to ask the question "why" and never feeling comfortable with the continued answer of, because ___________ (fill in the blank) says so, and you must have faith. My wife is a devout Christian ... I support her totally in her quest. I never talk down or dismiss her in anyway. We can do this because she respects mine. She implicitly understands why I am an Objectivist. I understand why she is a Christian.
To be honest ... I see no value in debating "predestination" or "God's Sovereignty". The reason is I know where those debates lead. For me to debate them will ultimately lead to my opponent acknowledging the premiss that underlies both. That there is a God and that we can only know him by faith. I cannot do that ... I tried. I was the guy who kept asking "why" and got the same answer. I found my answers in the philosophy of Objectivism.
This is the second time I have run across this guy. As CDFord said, I have heard some of this before. Did I listen or watch...no. I know enough about him to just really stay away from what he promotes.
To each there own...in the end it will be them with Jesus and the partial judgment. He is totally misinformed about the role of the Blessed Virgin Mary...totally.
Free will...absolutely we do. This predestination thing.....yes God knows the future and how many people will be saved and how many won't. But to think that everyone is preprogramed to fail or succeed is just nonsense.
Sacred Heart of Mary, pray for us now, and at the hour of our death. AMEN
O blood and water which gush forth from the heart of Jesus, have mercy on us
For the sake of his sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and the whole world
I probably should not have ever responded to this post. I was reading the "new posts" thread and came across it. I am relatively new to BBC and was not aware of the "increasing our faith" thread, so I apologize. I really do hope I did not come across as attempting to be argumentative from the start. That was certainly not my intent. Honestly, I really do enjoy discussing these topics with anyone honest enough to accept the premises their argument presupposes. If a point is reached where no value is gained by continuing the discussion ... I move on with no harm.
I likely would not have replied to your post if I knew this was a faith based thread since it is not my nature to invite controversy in someone's beliefs. Sorry for that.
CD, No apology needed for me, I appreciate dialogue. I have been asking the "why" questions for decades myself and will continue to do so. I am not a scientist or an engineer , I push a lot of dirt though.
I listen to atheist, agnostic, philosophers , scientist ect to broaden my understanding and knowledge. Thanks again for your comment.
Of course.
drifter, Have you studied pelagiunism and more specifically semi-pelagiunism in the church history ? A history long before the reformers came on the scene ?
I can tell when people do not watch or read information presented in a thread.........not only here but even in the BBC lounge ect.
In the bonus video, Sproul speaks about Sartre and his philosophy of mans free will.
I cannot imagine anyone making it more than a couple minutes through those videos.
Interested in why you asked Drifter about Pelagianism. Pelgias was a 5th century Ascetic Philosopher who opposed Augustine and was persecuted for it since the Church was the authority of the time period. What does that have to do with this conversation? ... just curious. I am a firm believer in historical studies. Especially in philosophy. It has been said that History is the laboratory of philosophy. A careful note of caution on this endeavour should be mentioned. Historical studies must take precaution in the context of when it happened, where it happened, what knowledge was known in the culture at the time, and what conditions were present that led to historically notable events. These are just a few points to take into consideration when diving back into history to make a point for an argument in our current context. As an example ... we hear all kinds of revisionist historians who claim our founding fathers as slave owner tyrants and do not deserve any accolades for writing the Declaration of Independence in 1776, the US Constitution in 1789, and the Bill of Rights in 1791. Yes they owned slaves ... some of them. But one must understand the historical context of what was known at the time.
I do not know much about Pelgias, but I do know alot about Aristotle. Aristotle preceded Pelagias by ~600 years. Oher than his teachings on ethics, which were polluted by his teacher Plato set the groundwork for the scientific revolution aka rational independent thought and later, the greatest nation on earth that recognizes free will and Individual rights.
And this leads me to why I responded to this post originally. I take notice when someone suggests there is no such thing as free will. That suggestion goes against everything I stand for and cannot go un challenged. I do not mean to suggest that was your intent, but that is the reason I responded in the first place.
I suspect you are a well intentioned individual who asks why, and also enjoy discussing these types of topics.
In closing my post ... I have one question to ask and would love to hear your answer. What is your standard of truth?
CD, good afternoon.
1. drifter and I have had multiple conversation's regarding many topics.................. I asked about Pelagiuanism out of curiosity.
2. I have done my fair share of research of Church history, and the influences that occurred to shape the landscape from Second Temple Judaism period and onward.
3. I know of Aristotle but have never studied him.
You already know my standard of truth...............................
Yes i do ... Thanks for the reply and enjoy the rest of your day.
Yes sir, you do the same.
Sproul knows a little about philosophy for those who are interested :
Thales by R.C. Sproul from The Consequences of Ideas (ligonier.org)
Monism and Pluralism by R.C. Sproul from The Consequences of Ideas (ligonier.org)
Parmenides, Heraclitus, and Zeno by R.C. Sproul from The Consequences of Ideas (ligonier.org)
Socrates by R.C. Sproul from The Consequences of Ideas (ligonier.org)
Plato (Part 1) by R.C. Sproul from The Consequences of Ideas (ligonier.org)
Plato (Part 2) by R.C. Sproul from The Consequences of Ideas (ligonier.org)
Aristotle (Part 1) by R.C. Sproul from The Consequences of Ideas (ligonier.org)
Aristotle (Part 2) by R.C. Sproul from The Consequences of Ideas (ligonier.org)
Plotinus and Neo-Platonism by R.C. Sproul from The Consequences of Ideas (ligonier.org)
Augustine by R.C. Sproul from The Consequences of Ideas (ligonier.org)
Anselm by R.C. Sproul from The Consequences of Ideas (ligonier.org)
Aquinas (Part 1) by R.C. Sproul from The Consequences of Ideas (ligonier.org)
Aquinas (Part 2) by R.C. Sproul from The Consequences of Ideas (ligonier.org)
The Renaissance Revolution by R.C. Sproul from The Consequences of Ideas (ligonier.org)
Descartes by R.C. Sproul from The Consequences of Ideas (ligonier.org)
Descartes and "Cause and Effect" by R.C. Sproul from The Consequences of Ideas (ligonier.org)
Leibniz by R.C. Sproul from The Consequences of Ideas (ligonier.org)
Pascal by R.C. Sproul from The Consequences of Ideas (ligonier.org)
Locke by R.C. Sproul from The Consequences of Ideas (ligonier.org)
Crisis in the 18th Century (Part 1) by R.C. Sproul from The Consequences of Ideas (ligonier.org)
Crisis in the 18th Century (Part 2) by R.C. Sproul from The Consequences of Ideas (ligonier.org)
Berkeley and Empiricism by R.C. Sproul from The Consequences of Ideas (ligonier.org)
Hume (Part 1) by R.C. Sproul from The Consequences of Ideas (ligonier.org)
Hume (Part 2) by R.C. Sproul from The Consequences of Ideas (ligonier.org)
The Enlightenment (Part 1) by R.C. Sproul from The Consequences of Ideas (ligonier.org)
The Enlightenment (Part 2) by R.C. Sproul from The Consequences of Ideas (ligonier.org)
Kant (Part 1) by R.C. Sproul from The Consequences of Ideas (ligonier.org)
Kant (Part 2) by R.C. Sproul from The Consequences of Ideas (ligonier.org)
Hegel by R.C. Sproul from The Consequences of Ideas (ligonier.org)
Marx by R.C. Sproul from The Consequences of Ideas (ligonier.org)
Kierkegaard by R.C. Sproul from The Consequences of Ideas (ligonier.org)
Nietzsche by R.C. Sproul from The Consequences of Ideas (ligonier.org)
Sartre and Heidegger by R.C. Sproul from The Consequences of Ideas (ligonier.org)
Russell by R.C. Sproul from The Consequences of Ideas (ligonier.org)
Modern Philosophers by R.C. Sproul from The Consequences of Ideas (ligonier.org)
Last edited by godsdozer; 04-12-2021 at 04:29 PM.
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