Jesus' followers during and after his death (passion)

[drifter106]

I would like to engage fellow Christians on this specific topic. I would like to point out something that, to me, is very significant. First, I have known most of my adult life that the reformation that the Middle Ages went through has had a lasting effect. For so long the Bible and the stories in the Bible were pasted down, read and believed by many. Basically, you were either Catholic or Pagan and followed the appropriate text.


Reformation:
Due to the actions of individuals at the time, their were changes made in the text of the Bible. Probably one of the most read Bibles (Protestant) is the King James Bible. Catholics continued to utilize the Douay-Rheims Bible (popular version today is The New Jerusalem Bible). Significant changes were made or omitted from the original. Never-less, we have what we have.

Probably the most significant part that was left out was the account of the "Last Supper". I will address that at a later time.

Getting back to topic....

Lets place ourselves in the situation...the Sanhedrin and their minions were in a desperate desire to arrest Jesus. Believe it or not, they wanted to arrest Lazarus ...why? Hey, the dude previously rose from the dead. When Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead... it spread by word of mouth throughout the city. Lazarus, do you really think he was gonna play "cats got my tongue". So they wanted Jesus in a bad way BUT didn't want to "upset" the natives. The home boys didn't want to lose their flock....people were starting to follow the Lord and this went against everything they stood for (money and power).

Getting back to topic...

The Last Supper took place in the "Upper Room". This, along with many other things (personal property) were owned by Joesph of Arimathaea. Coincidence?Name ring a bell?


What happened to Jesus' followers? Only one was with Jesus at Calvary....why were they not around? The Holy women and Mary were their.

This upper room is where his mother Mary and her entourage stayed after the crucifixion. The apostles were in fear of their lives because of what happened to Jesus. All those who followed Jesus were in fear of their life.

So.....this was Friday night....they ate, slept, and prayed until Sunday morning. Then what...Mary M. went to the tomb? Right....went back and told the others right? The Apostles Peter and John were there right? They were told that Jesus had risen....doesn't say it in the Bibles but don't you think ALL of them were excited?

So here is the question I propose to you all...it is mentioned in the Bibles about the people who saw that he had risen.....

Why is his mother not mentioned in the Bibles about seeing the risen Christ? The one person who exhibited the greatest love for Jesus, suffered with him on his way to Calvary. Stood with him at the cross. If she had heard what the others heard....why didn't she go? If she went don't you think the writers of the Bible would of put that in? Its his Mother! !! !

​thoughts?

[digthemup]

Drifter,
That is a very interesting question, since she would have gone to the tomb to bring spices, frankincense and myrrh which was customary for the family to do. It does speak of the women going to the tomb for such purpose, and I am sure you recall Lazarus' sisters.
What is your thoughts on the matter? and why is there very little known about Joseph?

[grandbassslayer]

Q:What happened to Jesus' followers? Only one was with Jesus at Calvary....why were they not around?

A: IMO the amount of followers were not as great as we assume. They were looking for the Messiah, a conquering physical king, so they had more questions than answers at that point. Jesus wanted national repentance, did not get it, but someday he will. Again this is my opinion, I know some brothers in Christ will disagree.

Love God! Love you neighbor!

[godsdozer]

Q:What happened to Jesus' followers? Only one was with Jesus at Calvary....why were they not around?

A: IMO the amount of followers were not as great as we assume. They were looking for the Messiah, a conquering physical king, so they had more questions than answers at that point. Jesus wanted national repentance, did not get it, but someday he will. Again this is my opinion, I know some brothers in Christ will disagree.

Love God! Love you neighbor!

Just kidding . :)

[godsdozer]

On a more serious note, I agree with GBS's point about there not being a lot of people that were following Christ around the time of the passion. And I agree with GBS's statement that the Jews were definitely looking for a "worldly/earthly" king in the Messiah they were expecting.

I do not know why the Mother is not mentioned. And that is a great question. I will do some research and see what I can find.

Just because she isn't mentioned certainty does not mean she was not there. It reminds me of the bible verse which says :


John 21:25 "Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written."


​ Matthew , Mark and Luke all have different and conflicting accounts of the Tomb scene. I understand the Christian apologetics comments and the defense they give, I simply don't think they hold water. There is scholarship and they have their reasons of the differences.


Who knows, my prayer is this : As time marches on I hope we continue to have discoveries such as the Dead Sea Scrolls . They have provided us with so much knowledge and understanding.


Maybe we will discover a scroll of Mark that says his mother was there. :)

I know this may sound dumb but I have asked God many times to allow us to find an original or at least a copy of an original that may be proved to be dated in the first century.

[godsdozer]

I apologize to the OP, I am not the brightest crayon in the box. I have re read you post a couple of times trying to make sense of it in my mind.


you said > So.....this was Friday night....they ate, slept, and prayed until Sunday morning. Then what...Mary M. went to the tomb? Right....went back and told the others right? The Apostles Peter and John were there right? They were told that Jesus had risen....doesn't say it in the Bibles but don't you think ALL of them were excited?



​ I want to remind the OP that the gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke) do have differences in who went to the tomb, what they saw there and what they did after they left the tomb.


The easiest way to see this is to take your bible and read the gospels. Write out in a column who was there in Matthew , Mark and Luke. Then make a column and and write out what each observed while at the tomb in Matthew , Mark and luke. Then outline what they did after they left the tomb in Matthew , Mark and Luke.

As Christians we have to wrestle with this issue (and there are many). Hope this helps.

[LennyB]

...

[drifter106]

What I am about to write, some would have a hard time wrapping any truth around it. Blessed Catherine Emmerich was a Geman nun who lived in the late 1700's early 1800's in Germany. She received special graces from God. She suffered terribly...she had the stigmata's....similiar to what Padre Pio had. Emmerich had visions of what Jesus' went through in his passion (and much more).

Jesus' group had been foretold of his passion and that he would return in 3 days.

My contention is....Mary, the mother of Jesus, wasn't with the people at the tomb. Why? Because she knew (she was foretold by her son) that he would appear to her at a specific location. He would appear to her by herself at a predetermine location. Now some people may want to roll their eyes on this one but do you think that this statement is plausible?

Mary was perfect....entered the world with no original sin. She was full of grace at the moment Jesus was conceived in her womb.

Why wouldn't Jesus want to see his mother before any other person?????????

This is a big pill to swallow....for one its not in scripture. But a lot of things went down in the course of time involving Jesus and the events around his time on earth. Give this some thought and ask yourself if this makes any sense.

[grandbassslayer]

Where are we told Mary was perfect?

[digthemup]

Always remember what Scripture states, that through Adam we all sinned. As far as I can understand in my limited human mind, being without original sin nor being eternally virgin was never mandated. It is stated in the Scriptures that Jesus Christ would be born by virgin birth, which was declared on to Mary before she was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit. However, the angel does not state in any passage to Mary nor Joseph that Mary would be a virgin in perpetuity otherwise her highest blessing bestowed upon her by GOD Himself would be repented.

In no way, being physical mother to other children, makes her any less Blessed Mary mother of the Most High Christ, which is the highest honor any women could ever possibly be honored with.

[LennyB]

...

[drifter106]

Where are we told Mary was perfect?

Good question....pretty hard to come up with a line that INDICATES those exact words. But lets think outside the box a little bit. We are talking about God here...Jesus, the second person of the Trinity. Do you...we...think or contemplate that the Son of God is going to be "conceived" in a human who IS not free of original sin?

Have you heard of the Immaculate Conception? It wasn't Jesus....IT WAS HIS MOTHER! When our Lady appeared to Bernadette at Lourdes (France 1858) was the first vision. That is when the Blessed Virgin Mary told her she was the Immaculate Conception.

side note....I am starting to feel like I am talking about Algebra II when we haven't talk about Algebra I. Please, take no offense to that comment but starting to mention things that probably need a foundation to start from.

There have been numerous visions of her throughout time....why do you think Mexico is mostly Catholic? Because of the apparition of Juan Diego. Our Lady of Guadalupa....

I will mention this here but not describe it...the most significant apparition to date was in Poland. Divine Mercy This is where Jesus himself appeared to Sister Faustina. Will leave that for another thread...there is a lot more out there....

[JDS723]

Good question....pretty hard to come up with a line that INDICATES those exact words. But lets think outside the box a little bit. We are talking about God here...Jesus, the second person of the Trinity. Do you...we...think or contemplate that the Son of God is going to be "conceived" in a human who IS not free of original sin?

Have you heard of the Immaculate Conception? It wasn't Jesus....IT WAS HIS MOTHER! When our Lady appeared to Bernadette at Lourdes (France 1858) was the first vision. That is when the Blessed Virgin Mary told her she was the Immaculate Conception.

side note....I am starting to feel like I am talking about Algebra II when we haven't talk about Algebra I. Please, take no offense to that comment but starting to mention things that probably need a foundation to start from.

There have been numerous visions of her throughout time....why do you think Mexico is mostly Catholic? Because of the apparition of Juan Diego. Our Lady of Guadalupa....

I will mention this here but not describe it...the most significant apparition to date was in Poland. Divine Mercy This is where Jesus himself appeared to Sister Faustina. Will leave that for another thread...there is a lot more out there....

Some interesting thoughts for sure. I know we disagree, but here is my thoughts on Mary. Mary was highly favored as mentioned in the Scriptures LennyB has pointed out, but Mary was no different than us. She too had inherited the sin nature passed down from Adam. She too was a sinner needing mercy and grace. I have zero doubt that she is in glory for all of eternity with Jesus as she was a woman of great faith. The sin nature was passed from the seed of Adam, the father. Because Jesus had no blood from Adam, he did not inherit his sin nature. Therefore, although Mary was a sinner just like me, Jesus was not.

[grandbassslayer]

Some interesting thoughts for sure. I know we disagree, but here is my thoughts on Mary. Mary was highly favored as mentioned in the Scriptures LennyB has pointed out, but Mary was no different than us. She too had inherited the sin nature passed down from Adam. She too was a sinner needing mercy and grace. I have zero doubt that she is in glory for all of eternity with Jesus as she was a woman of great faith. The sin nature was passed from the seed of Adam, the father. Because Jesus had no blood from Adam, he did not inherit his sin nature. Therefore, although Mary was a sinner just like me, Jesus was not.

Excellent summary! To say other wise lessens the Glory of the trinity IMO.

[drifter106]

Some interesting thoughts for sure. I know we disagree, but here is my thoughts on Mary. Mary was highly favored as mentioned in the Scriptures LennyB has pointed out, but Mary was no different than us. She too had inherited the sin nature passed down from Adam. She too was a sinner needing mercy and grace. I have zero doubt that she is in glory for all of eternity with Jesus as she was a woman of great faith. The sin nature was passed from the seed of Adam, the father. Because Jesus had no blood from Adam, he did not inherit his sin nature. Therefore, although Mary was a sinner just like me, Jesus was not.

Well...lets agree that we disagree. What is the interruption of your KJV of the meeting between Gabriel and the Blessed Virgin? Found favor with God? How does one interrupt the word "found favor"? Know of any other Biblical figure with similar curcumstances? Think about it....this women, created similar to other humans was to carry the seed of the Lord. Honestly....do you think God is going to allow that seed to be placed in a sinner? Someone who, as you say, had original sin.

On a final note...Jesus, her son....how does he take it when people call his mother a sinner. A sinner similar to other humans. Since we know all things are possible with God...do you think he might of made an exception when it came to creating her? Maybe without original sin? Don't you think the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary was a hallow place? Her womb was the Holy Vessel that carried Jesus for 9 months.

Disappointing that some people chose to call the Mother of God a sinner....

[grandbassslayer]

I have found favor with God, its called reconciliation. If she is not a sinner in your opinion than that makes her a deity to you, and we know what the Bible says about that.

[digthemup]

Some interesting thoughts for sure. I know we disagree, but here is my thoughts on Mary. Mary was highly favored as mentioned in the Scriptures LennyB has pointed out, but Mary was no different than us. She too had inherited the sin nature passed down from Adam. She too was a sinner needing mercy and grace. I have zero doubt that she is in glory for all of eternity with Jesus as she was a woman of great faith. The sin nature was passed from the seed of Adam, the father. Because Jesus had no blood from Adam, he did not inherit his sin nature. Therefore, although Mary was a sinner just like me, Jesus was not.

Could not have said it any better myself. This is excellent JDS723, and thank you for being to the point.

[digthemup]

Well...lets agree that we disagree. What is the interruption of your KJV of the meeting between Gabriel and the Blessed Virgin? Found favor with God? How does one interrupt the word "found favor"? Know of any other Biblical figure with similar curcumstances? Think about it....this women, created similar to other humans was to carry the seed of the Lord. Honestly....do you think God is going to allow that seed to be placed in a sinner? Someone who, as you say, had original sin.

On a final note...Jesus, her son....how does he take it when people call his mother a sinner. A sinner similar to other humans. Since we know all things are possible with God...do you think he might of made an exception when it came to creating her? Maybe without original sin? Don't you think the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary was a hallow place? Her womb was the Holy Vessel that carried Jesus for 9 months.

Disappointing that some people chose to call the Mother of God a sinner....

This is exactly when you allow limited human thinking and feeling interfere with what Scripture says. Man, you are clearly speaking of your own opinion, since there is nothing in Scripture to support what you are saying.
Remember, GOD chose the weak and common to show onto us that HE IS GOD, and we are not even a grain of sand to His understanding. Jesus Christ, God in human form, our Risen Savior Redeemer gave his life so that ALL of humanity be redeemed from sin for all times. Now, I strongly believe that Joseph and Mary, though undisputedly greatly esteemed and blessed by GOD, are part of humanity; Hence, Jesus Christ the Living God gave His precious life for them also.

[godsdozer]

drifter, after reading through your post I assume you are Catholic ? Please correct me if I am wrong.


I read your post #15 of this thread. Here is your statement that caught my attention.

" What is the interruption of your KJV of the meeting between Gabriel and the Blessed Virgin? Found favor with God? How does one interrupt the word "found favor"? Know of any other Biblical figure with similar curcumstances? Think about it...."



​ I am assuming you meant "interpretation" ?


I pulled up my Logos Bible Software program to examine the Greek words in that text. Logos has many Lexicons available for your review so I am not picking favorites :)


I will provide the Lexicon definitions for "found favor" if you need them.


There is nothing in the Greek language that would support your view of Mary not having a sin nature . Can you please provide the Catholic view on how they come up with this doctrine ?


Thank you

[drifter106]

drifter, after reading through your post I assume you are Catholic ? Please correct me if I am wrong.


I read your post #15 of this thread. Here is your statement that caught my attention.

" What is the interruption of your KJV of the meeting between Gabriel and the Blessed Virgin? Found favor with God? How does one interrupt the word "found favor"? Know of any other Biblical figure with similar curcumstances? Think about it...."



​ I am assuming you meant "interpretation" ?


I pulled up my Logos Bible Software program to examine the Greek words in that text. Logos has many Lexicons available for your review so I am not picking favorites :)


I will provide the Lexicon definitions for "found favor" if you need them.


There is nothing in the Greek language that would support your view of Mary not having a sin nature . Can you please provide the Catholic view on how they come up with this doctrine ?


Thank you

yes....it should be interpretation. The inappropriate word affected the syntax. Thank you for pointing that out.