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  1. Member drifter106's Avatar
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    #21
    Quote Originally Posted by digthemup View Post
    This is exactly when you allow limited human thinking and feeling interfere with what Scripture says. Man, you are clearly speaking of your own opinion, since there is nothing in Scripture to support what you are saying.
    Remember, GOD chose the weak and common to show onto us that HE IS GOD, and we are not even a grain of sand to His understanding. Jesus Christ, God in human form, our Risen Savior Redeemer gave his life so that ALL of humanity be redeemed from sin for all times. Now, I strongly believe that Joseph and Mary, though undisputedly greatly esteemed and blessed by GOD, are part of humanity; Hence, Jesus Christ the Living God gave His precious life for them also.
    ok...but what does that statement have to do with my response? Totally agree....
    Sacred Heart of Mary, pray for us now, and at the hour of our death. AMEN
    O blood and water which gush forth from the heart of Jesus, have mercy on us
    For the sake of his sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and the whole world

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    #22
    Quote Originally Posted by drifter106 View Post
    yes....it should be interpretation. The inappropriate word affected the syntax. Thank you for pointing that out.
    Interpretation? Shouldn't you question why your faith puts tradition over the Bible?

  3. NOT a Pro Angler sdbrison's Avatar
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    #23
    I am not Catholic but I understand the doctrine of her perpetual virginity and being the "perfect ark of the covenant". Not saying I agree, only I understand the reasoning. I believe tradition is going to play a part in everyone's beliefs to some extent.
    "If People Concentrated on the Really Important Things in Life, There'd be a Shortage of Fishing Poles." - Doug Larson
    "Peace is not the absence of turmoil but the presence of God" Jo-Ann Thomack

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    #24
    Quote Originally Posted by sdbrison View Post
    I am not Catholic but I understand the doctrine of her perpetual virginity and being the "perfect ark of the covenant". Not saying I agree, only I understand the reasoning. I believe tradition is going to play a part in everyone's beliefs to some extent.
    Drifter,
    this is what I was speaking about in post #18, as to where tradition and opinions carried over time have created the wrong preclusion of perpetual virginity. May I suggest that your would take the time to read Luke 1:11-56 and Mat 1:18-25 ( please give close attention to the last paragraph)NKJV/KJV. Thank you for having taken your time.

  5. Member drifter106's Avatar
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    #25
    Quote Originally Posted by digthemup View Post
    Drifter,
    this is what I was speaking about in post #18, as to where tradition and opinions carried over time have created the wrong preclusion of perpetual virginity. May I suggest that your would take the time to read Luke 1:11-56 and Mat 1:18-25 ( please give close attention to the last paragraph)NKJV/KJV. Thank you for having taken your time.
    Thank you for the strong suggestion....have read and heard this many times....I utilize the New Jeresulum Bible for reference. In this version of the Bible... man has not changed the meaning of the syntax to meet or fulfill his own interruption.

    Matt 1:18-25

    18 This is how Jesus Christ came to be born. His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph; but before they came to live together she was found to
    be with child through the Holy Spirit.
    19 Her husband Joseph, being an upright man and wanting to spare her disgrace, decided to divorce her informally.
    20 He had made up his mind to do this when suddenly the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, 'Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because she has conceived what is in her by the Holy Spirit.
    21 She will give birth to a son and you must name him Jesus, because he is the one who is to save his people from their sins.'
    22 Now all this took place to fulfil what the Lord had spoken through the prophet:
    23 Look! the virgin is with child and will give birth to a son whom they will call Immanuel, a name which means 'God-is-with-us'.
    24 When Joseph woke up he did what the angel of the Lord had told him to do: he took his wife to his home;
    25 he had not had intercourse with her when she gave birth to a son; and he named him Jesus.

    Luke 1 26-38

    26 In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a town in Galilee called Nazareth,
    27 to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the House of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
    28 He went in and said to her, 'Rejoice, you who enjoy God's favor! The Lord is with you.'
    29 She was deeply disturbed by these words and asked herself what this greeting could mean,
    30 but the angel said to her, 'Mary, do not be afraid; you have won God's favour.
    31 Look! You are to conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you must name him Jesus.
    32 He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his ancestor David;


    33 he will rule over the House of Jacob for ever and his reign will have no end.'
    34 Mary said to the angel, 'But how can this come about, since I have no knowledge of man?'
    35 The angel answered, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will cover you with its shadow. And so the child will be holy and will be called Son of God.
    36 And I tell you this too: your cousin Elizabeth also, in her old age, has conceived a son, and she whom people called barren is now in her sixth month,
    37 for nothing is impossible to God.
    38 Mary said, 'You see before you the Lord's servant, let it happen to me as you have said.' And the angel left her.

    Let us remember verse 37....for nothing is impossible to God




    Thank you for responding...




    Sacred Heart of Mary, pray for us now, and at the hour of our death. AMEN
    O blood and water which gush forth from the heart of Jesus, have mercy on us
    For the sake of his sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and the whole world

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    #26
    Drifter,
    You are absolutely correct that all things are possible with GOD, hence, Isaac was born of Sarah and Abraham at 99, John the Baptizer from Elisabeth late in life and baren, Samuel from Hannah.

    However, GOD did not chose Jesus to be born in a household of 'perfect' pharisees, scribe, sadducees, or 1 of the kings after David that did that which was pleasing onto GOD, but he chose a humble common man and woman bestowing them with the ultimate honor of humanly parenting God in human form. Imagine how challenging it must have been knowing who Jesus truly was, yet having to guide him grow along with His brothers and sisters, without preferences in humbleness. Now, that is one momentous challenge!

    BTW, I don't know if I have mentioned to you that I attended catholic HS which mandated 2 of our classes to be on catholic religion, yet as I look back in my life, I know that I am exactly where GOD wants me to be in my relationship walk with Christ as my Savior. I pray that you have the same relationship with Him.
    Be well and be safe

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    #27
    Quote Originally Posted by drifter106 View Post
    Thank you for the strong suggestion....have read and heard this many times....I utilize the New Jeresulum Bible for reference. In this version of the Bible... man has not changed the meaning of the syntax to meet or fulfill his own interruption.

    Matt 1:18-25

    18 This is how Jesus Christ came to be born. His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph; but before they came to live together she was found to
    be with child through the Holy Spirit.
    19 Her husband Joseph, being an upright man and wanting to spare her disgrace, decided to divorce her informally.
    20 He had made up his mind to do this when suddenly the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, 'Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because she has conceived what is in her by the Holy Spirit.
    21 She will give birth to a son and you must name him Jesus, because he is the one who is to save his people from their sins.'
    22 Now all this took place to fulfil what the Lord had spoken through the prophet:
    23 Look! the virgin is with child and will give birth to a son whom they will call Immanuel, a name which means 'God-is-with-us'.
    24 When Joseph woke up he did what the angel of the Lord had told him to do: he took his wife to his home;
    25 he had not had intercourse with her when she gave birth to a son; and he named him Jesus.

    Luke 1 26-38

    26 In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a town in Galilee called Nazareth,
    27 to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the House of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
    28 He went in and said to her, 'Rejoice, you who enjoy God's favor! The Lord is with you.'
    29 She was deeply disturbed by these words and asked herself what this greeting could mean,
    30 but the angel said to her, 'Mary, do not be afraid; you have won God's favour.
    31 Look! You are to conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you must name him Jesus.
    32 He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his ancestor David;


    33 he will rule over the House of Jacob for ever and his reign will have no end.'
    34 Mary said to the angel, 'But how can this come about, since I have no knowledge of man?'
    35 The angel answered, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will cover you with its shadow. And so the child will be holy and will be called Son of God.
    36 And I tell you this too: your cousin Elizabeth also, in her old age, has conceived a son, and she whom people called barren is now in her sixth month,
    37 for nothing is impossible to God.
    38 Mary said, 'You see before you the Lord's servant, let it happen to me as you have said.' And the angel left her.

    Let us remember verse 37....for nothing is impossible to God




    Thank you for responding...




    How does this translation make Mary more than any of us?

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    #28
    Quote Originally Posted by grandbassslayer View Post
    How does this translation make Mary more than any of us?

    I wondered the same thing . I read it and then went to read the Youngs Literal Translation but more importantly last night I had stated I looked it up in the Greek Lexicons. No where does it elevate Mary into what has been proposed in this thread.

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    #29
    GBS, Dozer,
    Thank you for supporting what I have been trying to explain in my crude way. GOD's glory is magnified in humbleness and common folks that Joseph and Mary represent, though chosen and blessed by GOD to be the caregivers to our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ son of GOD.

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    #30
    Dig, maybe this is just Catholic oral tradition ? That is what I assume that his position represents. Oral tradition in itself is not bad, but it has certainly caused some problems not only in the Catholic faith, but the Protestant faith as well. Oh well, thankfully God is full of grace and mercy.
    Last edited by godsdozer; 02-24-2021 at 10:23 PM.

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    #31
    On matters like this, my opinion is, does it matter? Yes I know she must have been a special person, as she was chosen by God to be a vessel to bring forth Jesus our Savior. That in and of itself is miraculous. Can you imagine the blessings bestowed to Mary because of this. I would imagine that guaranteed her eternity. The bible does say that God cannot be with or for a better interpretation around sin. He also has the power to take away sin. To me, Mary could have been born with original sin, But God would have reconciled it before the Holy Spirit came to her.
    All sheep are eventually led to slaughter

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    #32
    Jeff,
    You are right that opinion and traditions could have carried on some misconceptions. GOD has created all things, and the Scriptures explain that some vessel were created to honor and some not so.
    GOD used burning coal from his alter to cleanse Ezekiel's lips, how much more can the Holy Spirit cleanse?
    Sometimes conversations become circular giving debate at nauseum, nevertheless, there is still 1 constant, GOD chose Mary to be the vessel honoring her with the blessing of bringing forth God in human form; hence, in that action GOD has blessed and honored Mary.

  13. Member drifter106's Avatar
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    #33
    I must say....you guys are strong in your faith....and thats a good thing! But if evidence were presented...could or would you be open to revelations that have the ability to look at events from a different perspective? In other words....providing information that is, there, but gives us a level of knowledge that we were not aware of?
    Sacred Heart of Mary, pray for us now, and at the hour of our death. AMEN
    O blood and water which gush forth from the heart of Jesus, have mercy on us
    For the sake of his sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and the whole world

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    #34
    Quote Originally Posted by drifter106 View Post
    I must say....you guys are strong in your faith....and thats a good thing! But if evidence were presented...could or would you be open to revelations that have the ability to look at events from a different perspective? In other words....providing information that is, there, but gives us a level of knowledge that we were not aware of?
    Drifter,
    If you have Scriptural supported evidence that supports Mary being supernatural perpetual virgin, which I have never seen nor read it to be a requirement, I would love to read it and learn it.
    As we both agreed before, there is a quite a few things that were introduced by the papacy in the dark yrs of medieval and renaissance times just to fleece the flock for just another cathedral with their name on it.
    BTW, thank you for your compliment about our faith in Christ, and I pray that your is just as strong in our Saviour. Amen

  15. Member drifter106's Avatar
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    #35
    Let me approach this topic in this way....We can relate that we find in the Bible (in the Old Testament) Prophecies given to us by what we call Prophets. Can we all agree on that? In a nutshell, they prophesies the coming of the Messiah. Could we agree on that? For decades, centuries, many were waiting on the "coming of the Lord".

    Eventually, Jesus was born...and for about 30 years he lived with his mother and step father. Joesph was to die before Jesus chose to go on his ministerial mission. Agree????

    After his death, during the Feast of Pentecost (by the way....this was the BEGINNING of the universal church. Commonly known as the Catholic Church...with Peter being the first Pope). Agree?

    Jesus' community....church began to grow exponentially....can we agree on that?

    If I can elicit a response....I will continue...
    Sacred Heart of Mary, pray for us now, and at the hour of our death. AMEN
    O blood and water which gush forth from the heart of Jesus, have mercy on us
    For the sake of his sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and the whole world

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    #36
    Quote Originally Posted by drifter106 View Post
    Let me approach this topic in this way....We can relate that we find in the Bible (in the Old Testament) Prophecies given to us by what we call Prophets. Can we all agree on that? In a nutshell, they prophesies the coming of the Messiah. Could we agree on that? For decades, centuries, many were waiting on the "coming of the Lord".

    Eventually, Jesus was born...and for about 30 years he lived with his mother and step father. Joesph was to die before Jesus chose to go on his ministerial mission. Agree????

    After his death, during the Feast of Pentecost (by the way....this was the BEGINNING of the universal church. Commonly known as the Catholic Church...with Peter being the first Pope). Agree?

    Jesus' community....church began to grow exponentially....can we agree on that?

    If I can elicit a response....I will continue...
    I'll answer this way, I was born and raised a Catholic, I am still a Catholic but I am a Christian first. I don't believe any religion is infallible nor any individual. I have read the Bible every year for the last 10 years at least. Trying to read a different version every year and so far I have found the constant that means the most to me, they are John 3:16 and John 14:6. Those two things are the only facts I truly need to know. I'm a sinner, will always be, yet I know I'm saved by the blood of Jesus.
    All sheep are eventually led to slaughter

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    #37
    Quote Originally Posted by drifter106 View Post
    Let me approach this topic in this way....We can relate that we find in the Bible (in the Old Testament) Prophecies given to us by what we call Prophets. Can we all agree on that? In a nutshell, they prophesied the coming of the Messiah. Could we agree on that? For decades, centuries, many were waiting on the "coming of the Lord".
    GOD Himself called them prophets, and they are well supported throughout Scripture.

    Eventually, Jesus was born...and for about 30 years he lived with his mother and step father. Joseph was to die before Jesus chose to go on his ministerial mission. Agree????
    Agreed on the first statement, however, there is very little said about what happened to Joseph or when. BTW, St Joseph is the patron saint of my birth town Agrigento.

    After his death, during the Feast of Pentecost (by the way....this was the BEGINNING of the universal church. Commonly known as the Catholic Church...with Peter being the first Pope). Agree?
    After pentecost, the apostles continued to meet regularly and formed the grass roots church, however, whether it was the catholic church with Peter being the first leader 'pope', there is no such indication, apart to the discussion between Jesus and Peter, which could be construed as such. BTW, the first believers were know as christians and called such at Antioch.

    Jesus' community....church began to grow exponentially....can we agree on that?
    Community doesn't in itself represent the church, not a church its community. Yes, Jesus added believers daily during is ministry, and all other apostles added onto it after His resurrection.

    If I can elicit a response....I will continue...
    I fail to see where you are going with this, but please continue if you must.

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    #38
    Quote Originally Posted by drifter106 View Post
    I must say....you guys are strong in your faith....and thats a good thing! But if evidence were presented...could or would you be open to revelations that have the ability to look at events from a different perspective? In other words....providing information that is, there, but gives us a level of knowledge that we were not aware of?
    Nothing relevant or prophetic will contradict the scriptures.

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    #39
    Quote Originally Posted by drifter106 View Post
    Let me approach this topic in this way....We can relate that we find in the Bible (in the Old Testament) Prophecies given to us by what we call Prophets. Can we all agree on that? In a nutshell, they prophesies the coming of the Messiah. Could we agree on that? For decades, centuries, many were waiting on the "coming of the Lord".

    Eventually, Jesus was born...and for about 30 years he lived with his mother and step father. Joesph was to die before Jesus chose to go on his ministerial mission. Agree????

    After his death, during the Feast of Pentecost (by the way....this was the BEGINNING of the universal church. Commonly known as the Catholic Church...with Peter being the first Pope). Agree?

    Jesus' community....church began to grow exponentially....can we agree on that?

    If I can elicit a response....I will continue...
    You can call Peter a pope, but what does that mean, I don't see that anywhere in the Bible. I'd say Paul had a much bigger influence in spreading the gospel, but it's not about either one of them, they are both fallen men.

  20. Member drifter106's Avatar
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    #40
    Quote Originally Posted by grandbassslayer View Post
    You can call Peter a pope, but what does that mean, I don't see that anywhere in the Bible. I'd say Paul had a much bigger influence in spreading the gospel, but it's not about either one of them, they are both fallen men.
    Matthew 16 16-19 KJV

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...19&version=KJV
    Sacred Heart of Mary, pray for us now, and at the hour of our death. AMEN
    O blood and water which gush forth from the heart of Jesus, have mercy on us
    For the sake of his sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and the whole world

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