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  1. #1
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    Then the end would will come

    In Matthew 24:14 Jesus gave a time statement on "when" the end would happen or occur. Here is what Jesus said .


    "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world and then the end will come."


    Our friend Lenny a JW recently commented on one of rexicos' threads and posted his JW rhetoric regarding the interpretation of this passage according to JW bible scholars, sadly these are in line for the most part with the teachings of Christianity today. (Maybe Christians shouldn't be so fast to throw stones at people that align so close to what you believe ?

    The majority of Christians believe the same false teachings of the JW. Christians today are still looking for the fulfillment Jesus' proclamation of "when" the end would occur. This proclamation according to Jesus was clear and concise ......................."preached in the whole world", THEN THE END WOULD COME.


    I have heard people talking about completing the great Commission since I became a believer decades ago in order to obey passages like :

    The Great Commission

    16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go.17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

    ​ There are a couple of things to understand in the context of Jesus' instruction.

    1. The Greek word for "nations" is "Ethnois" (if my memory serves me ) in the Greek language this most often refers tothe nations of Israel. Ie. the 12 tribes. I am not going to post all of the text that support this, I cant study for everyone. Please look it up in the Greek and Hebrew Lexicons. The reason this is important, do you guys and gals remember one of Jesus' statements ? Here I will quote it for you:

    :
    21Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”
    23Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”24He answered, “I was sent Sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”25The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.26He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”27“Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”28Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.



    ​ Jesus was on the Fathers mission of completing the promises to Israel. Was he not ? That's what Jesus said, is it not ? Jesus knew that if he completed the promise's to Israel .................................all people could come into the Kingdom of God. Is this not what Paul preached ? Paul was Jew but went about accepting the gentiles into the Kingdom according to the NT. Often arguing with fellow Jews about their acceptance into Gods Kingdom.

    Even in the midst of Jesus' mission (the Fathers work that he sent him to complete) to the "Lost sheep of Israel" he had compassion on the dog and granted her request.


    Now back to Lenny's false theology tomorrow.



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    #2
    For some context , I thought I would post Lennys comments from the other thread. I have highlighted some of the points I will deal with from lennys post. Stay tuned.


    "Rexico,

    Jesus stated in the Bible: "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Matthew 24:14 - King James Version

    Other translations read: "And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." - Matthew 24:14 - New World Translation

    That prophecy is being fulfilled on a world wide scale today. As I sit and type this, there are close to 10,000,000 Bible Studies going on by Jehovah's Witnesses, many in such places as mentioned in your quote. The greatest growth today is in the far reaches of the earth where it can be at times very dangerous to "Preach the Good News of God's Kingdom". People are imprisoned and beaten daily for doing so, also foretold in the Bible. - WORLD NEWS




    MORE INFO on Matthew 24:14

    "And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."

    this good news or gospel: The Greek word eu·ag·geʹli·on is derived from the words eu, meaning “good; well” and agʹge·los, “one who brings news; one who proclaims (announces).” (See Glossary.) It is rendered “gospel” in some English Bibles. The related expression rendered “evangelizer” (Greek, eu·ag·ge·li·stesʹ) means “a proclaimer of good news.”​—Ac 21:8; Eph 4:11, 2Ti 4:5.

    the Kingdom: That is, God’s Kingdom. Throughout the Christian Greek Scriptures, the “good news” is closely linked with God’s Kingdom, the theme of Jesus’ preaching and teaching work.​—See study notes on Mt 3:2; 4:23; Lu 4:43.
    preached: Or “publicly proclaimed.”​—See study note on Mt 3:1.

    all the inhabited earth or world . . . all the nations: Both expressions emphasize the scope of the preaching work. In a broad sense, the Greek word for “inhabited earth” (oi·kou·meʹne) refers to the earth as the dwelling place of mankind. (Lu 4:5; Ac 17:31; Ro 10:18; Re 12:9; 16:14) In the first century, this term was also used in reference to the vast Roman Empire, where the Jews had been dispersed. (Lu 2:1; Ac 24:5) In its general sense, the Greek word for “nation” (eʹthnos) refers to a group of people who are more or less related to one another by blood and who have a common language. Such a national or ethnic group often occupies a defined geographic territory.

    for a witness: Or “for a testimony,” that is, an assurance that all the nations would hear the good news. The Greek word mar·tyʹri·on (witness; testimony) and related Greek words often refer to a recounting of the facts and events related to a subject. (See study note on Ac 1:8.) In this case, Jesus says that there would be a worldwide testimony of what God’s Kingdom would accomplish and a recounting of events related to that Kingdom. Jesus indicates that the global Kingdom-preaching work itself would be an important feature of “the sign of [his] presence.” (Mt 24:3) The fact that all the nations would receive this witness does not mean that all the nations would convert to true Christianity​—only that they would hear the testimony.



    Also,


    Some believe the prophecy of the "world wide preaching work" was fulfilled by early Christians just prior to 70CE when the Gentile (non-Christian) Roman Army destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple. On a small scale it was. A greater fulfillment of the prophecy however was still to come. History proves that the preaching work at that time was confined to that part of the world only. No one crossed the ocean to the far reaches of the earth. Some even believe that time of distress was the Great Tribulation that ended with the Battle of Armageddon.

    A couple simple reasons the above understanding can't be true is because of what Jesus stated:

    " For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." - Matthew 24:21- King James Version

    "for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. - Matthew 24:21 - New World Translation

    When we consider the fact that Jesus said the time of distress and destruction would never see anything greater, that battle and destruction at 70CE is dwarfed by the casualties and destruction of WW1 (20 million deaths and 21 million wounded) known as the Great War. Then consider the devastation of WW2
    (70–85 million people perished) where again the entire world was at war, the Holocaust happened, as well as two nuclear war heads were detonated.

    Also, the Gentile Roman Army that destroyed Jerusalem is a far cry from the "Army of the Heavens" which the Bible indicates will fight on God's behalf at the Battle of Armageddon. - Revelation 19:11-16 NWT - King James Version


    Hope that helps in your understanding.


    The World Wide Preaching Work has been well underway with Great Success ~ Lenny B "

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    #3
    My home got flooded by the great winter storm Texas has endured LOL ...............sorry for the delay. I will be in a Hotel for a month while our home is being repaired responding to the comments Lenny made above. I will keep these comments short and that may be a good thing so you can study as we go along.


    I do not want to follow Lennys chronology of his post because that is what people do to protect their beliefs. I will follow his lead until I feel it is not just to follow his chronology. And I will add other text in context where needed. Yall can fact check. This post may go on several days or weeks as I respond.


    Lenny said this > "Rexico,

    Jesus stated in the Bible: "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Matthew 24:14 - King James Version

    Other translations read: "And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." - Matthew 24:14 - New World Translation

    That prophecy is being fulfilled on a world wide scale today. As I sit and type this, there are close to 10,000,000 Bible Studies going on by Jehovah's Witnesses, many in such places as mentioned in your quote. The greatest growth today is in the far reaches of the earth where it can be at times very dangerous to "Preach the Good News of God's Kingdom". People are imprisoned and beaten daily for doing so, also foretold in the Bible. - WORLD NEWS



    Lenny is absolutely right when he says that the the Greek word "Oikoumene" can mean the inhabited earth. One thing he doesn't mention is this , the same Greek Lexicon states it can mean the "Roman Empire" . (Please look this up in your Lexicon or go online to find this out).

    One of the issues / problems in Biblical interpretation is this : Definition vs. Usage of a word. There is no doubt definitions matter, but definitions of words need to be interpreted in light of other scripture (usage). I will give you an example.

    I am a dirt contractor (bulldozers). If someone asked me if I owned a cat, I would respond , of course I do. I have several cats. If the person was asking about a cat (feline) he may interpret my answer in a wrong manner. The same thing happens in biblical interpretation.

    Here I will provide a biblical example of this .

    In Jeremiah 34 God pronounces judgment on Edom. This event happened centuries ago.

    And God himself says this :


    Edom’s streams will be turned to tar,and her soil to sulfur;her land will become a blazing pitch.10It will not be quenched—day or night.Its smoke will ascend forever.


    I do not know of any bible student who believes this prophecy wasn't fulfilled and that if you went over to Jordan today that you would still see literal smoke ascending up into the sky forever. Can we go over there today and find streams of tar ? Can we go over there and find their soil full of sulfer ? FOREVER IS FOREVER, ISNT IT ?


    ​ Definitions of words matter but usage of the word matters as well when we look at Greek words in the Lexicons.


    I will finish tonight with this N.T. example of the Greek word "Oikoumene" (earth) .

    In Luke Chapter 2 vs. 1 you will find this statement in our bibles >


    "In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire world".

    Now we know that Caesar Augustus did not take a census of the Americas, China, Antarctica, South America ect . but rather Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire "Roman" world ie. "Oikoumene".

    Modern translators have found and corrected this problem of "usage vs. Greek Lexicon definition" and some have corrected it in modern translations.


    When our bible was written in the first century they did not have a clue as to what was outside of the Roman Empire . That Empire was their "world" , especially for the Jew, they were under the oppression in a sense from the Romans and there were many sects within Judaism that were patiently awaiting their Messiah (think Essenes) .


    More to come. Thank you for reading.


    Last edited by godsdozer; 02-20-2021 at 09:57 PM.

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    #4
    Jesus made the comment of "when the end would come" in Matthew 24:14.

    "14 And thisgospel of the kingdomwill be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."

    Let me be clear, the bible teaches that the Gospel HAD BEEN (past tense to us who read the bible some 2000 years later) PREACHED IN ALL THE WORLD WITHIN A GENERATION OF JESUS SAYING THOSE WORDS IN MATTHEW 24:14. and the End has already come.

    Lets open the Bible to see what it says regarding the Gospel being preached in all the world. Lets not let our World or Biblical view slant what the Bible actually says rather lets adjust our understanding according to scripture.


    There is a Greek word used in the Bible from time to time and it is "Kosmos" and its lexicon definition is as follows :


    The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon
    Strong's Number: 2889 Browse Lexicon
    Original Word Word Origin
    kosmoß probably from the base of (2865)
    Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
    Kosmos 3:868,459
    Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
    kos'-mos Noun Masculine
    Definition

    1. an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
    2. ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:
    3. the world, the universe
    4. the circle of the earth, the earth
    5. the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
    6. the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
    7. world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
      1. the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ

    8. any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
      1. the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)
      2. of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19

    NAS Word Usage - Total: 186
    adornment 1, world 184, world's 1


    For Illustration purposes, the book of Matthew uses "Kosmos" 9 times and and it uses "Oikumene" 1 time.

    Matthew 5:14 "You are the light of the world (Kosmos), A town built on a hill can not be hidden.

    Matthew 16:26 "What good would it be for someone to gain the whole world (Kosmos) and yet forfeit his soul.

    Matthew 24:21 "For then there will be great tribulation, such has not been seen since the beginning of the world (Kosmos) until this time, no, nor shall ever be.


    Now, in Matthew 24:14 instead of Kosmos the writer uses Oikumene. What does this mean ? If the writer wanted his text to mean the whole globe / universe he would have used the Greek word Kosmos but the writer chose the Greek word which was fitting Ie. the known world or the Roman Empire.


    Lets see if the Gospel had been preached to the world according to scripture. Remember Jesus spoke those words somewhere around 30 CE/AD. The writers of the NT wrote around the 40s-68 CE /AD. Jesus had ascended into Heaven decades before these words were pinned.

    1. Romans 1:8 " First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world.........."

    2. Romans 10:18 "But I say, have they not heard ? Yes indeed :

    There sound has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world ."

    3. Colosians 1 :5-6 "5the faith and love proceeding from the hope stored up for you in heaven, of which you have already heard in the word of truth, the gospel 6that has come to you.All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing, just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood the grace of God."


    4. Colossians 1:23 "if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creaturee under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.


    We can see clearly the Bible teaches that the Gospel has gone out to all the world as they penned these words.

    Stay tuned for more !

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    #5
    Now that we have established according to the writers of the new testament that the Gospel "had been preached to the whole world, to every creature under heaven and to the nations" we might ought to ask ourselves this question.


    What "end" was Jesus talking about ? Remember Jesus said "and then the end would come ". Was Jesus talking about the end of the world ? the end of human history ? Or was Jesus talking about something that had been ongoing for centuries ?

    Since this thread is about Lenny's post I will provide his next quote from above . Please read Lenny's post carefully.


    Both expressions emphasize the scope of the preaching work. In a broad sense, the Greek word for “inhabited earth” (oi·kou·meʹne) refers to the earth as the dwelling place of mankind. (Lu 4:5; Ac 17:31; Ro 10:18; Re 12:9; 16:14) In the first century, this term was also used in reference to the vast Roman Empire, where the Jews had been dispersed. (Lu 2:1; Ac 24:5) In its general sense, the Greek word for “nation” (eʹthnos) refers to a group of people who are more or less related to one another by blood and who have a common language. Such a national or ethnic group often occupies a defined geographic territory.


    â​ Lenny is correct when he say's the following :


    In the first century, this term was also used in reference to the vast Roman Empire, where the Jews had been dispersed. (Lu 2:1; Ac 24:5) In its general sense, the Greek word for “nation” (eʹthnos) refers to a group of people who are more or less related to one another by blood and who have a common language. Such a national or ethnic group often occupies a defined geographic territory.


    In order to understand the "end" which Jesus was referencing, you have understand Lennys post above. I have been here on the faith forum for a few years trying to make this point. The bible is a very Hebraic book (concerned with the nation of Israel), it is filled with the covenants God made with OT Israel and Gods promises to Israel.

    The N.T. is Jesus and the apostles explaining over and over the fulfillment of the OT promises to Israel.




    * My Edit.................. In Lennys post above I should have mentioned his point which he made about the "diaspora" or in other terms the dispersion of the Jews into the nations when they went into captivity prior to the NT writers. I may disagree with the JW on many many points but I have to give them some props in their careful examination (not exegesis, but rather eisegesis) of the scriptures. :)


    The dispersion of the Jews into the nations is a very prominent theme in the NT. And that is one reason why Paul made it clear that the Gospel had gone to the "nations" ie. the lost sheep of Israel using Jesus' vernacular.

    Matthew 15:24 "He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

    Jesus was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel...................................why ? Because Jesus understood that if he fulfilled the promises to Israel....................the Gospel could come to all of us.

    Dispensationalist can not defend their position, I was raised in that theology for decades but always had issues with that statement Jesus made. The dispys say God postponed his plan (that is almost blasphemy, that God would send his son and have to postpone something because of mankind's decisions) because the Jews rejected Jesus. And yet Jesus himself said time after time, the end is about to come to this wicked and perverse generation.


    More to come
    Last edited by godsdozer; 02-24-2021 at 09:58 PM.

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    #6
    Back to the topic..............what was going to "end" ? Lets look in our bibles to find out.

    In order to understand what the "end" was in reference too, we have to see in context the conversation that led Jesus to this discussion. Lets Go now to Matthew 24. (The same story can be read in Luke 21 and Mark 13 )



    The Destruction of the Temple and Signs of the End Times

    24 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
    3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?

    ​ I copied and pasted from the NIV version of the Bible. Pick your flavor (Just don't pick the KJV version because they have revised , and rightly so, this chapter over the centuries. :)

    ​ The first thing I would like you to notice is this : In the caption above of the text it reads as follows :


    "The Destruction of the Temple and Signs of the End Times"

    The above caption IS NOT IN THE ACTUAL TEXT OF SCRIPTURE, this has been added by bible translators/interpreters . Translators/interpreters are the ones who interpret Greek/Hebrew/Latin/Coptic ect and bring it to our English language so we can read the bible in our native language.

    The above caption can be read or interpreted in a few different ways. In our modern day, scholars recognize that Jesus certainly predicted the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem BUT THERE IS MORE TO COME, AT LEAST ACCORDING TO THEM.

    On cursory reading of the caption it seems that the following text is speaking about the destruction of the temple ...............................then "signs of the end". It is almost as if they are attempting to get you to read Matthew 24 in a certain way.


    1. Matthew 24:1 We can see clearly, they were leaving the Temple edifice ......................it was a glorious temple (please read some history of this temple if you are not familiar with its glory and beauty .

    2. As they were leaving, the disciples came to him to call attention to these buildings.

    3. Jesus responded with this statement : Do you see all these things, he asked ? What things was Jesus referring too ? Of course it is the same buildings the disciples told Jesus to look and marvel at.

    4. Then Jesus responded with this statement : "Truly I tell you, not one stone will be left on one anther; every one will be thrown down"


    Stay tuned.

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    #7
    In the next bible verse we are informed by the scriptures that they left the temple area and walked up onto the mount of olives. The mount of olives overlooked the temple complex.


    Here is the passage : Matthew24: 3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

    It must have been a long walk for those Jewish fishermen. After all , they were just informed by Jesus that the place where they met with God (Holy of Holies) and the place where they took their sacrifice's each year to be presented to the high priest for their sins ,the place where all of the genealogies were held, the place where they were taught Torah, the place where they celebrated the feast days ect ect. It was their sanctuary and in a sense their world.

    Now lets look at the questions they asked Jesus shortly after Jesus had predicted "the destruction of the temple".

    1. "When" will this happen ? The word "when" is a question relating to timing. We use that word everyday, for example "when will supper be ready ? or When should I pick up the kids ? when the sun came up I was on the lake ect.

    2. "what will be sign of your coming and the end of the age" ? ​ The word "coming " in this passage is the Greek "Parousia". I am going to give the definition of this word according the Lexicons and hopefully you will read it CLOSLEY.


    The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon
    Strong's Number: 3952 Browse Lexicon
    Original Word Word Origin
    parousia from the present participle of (3918)
    Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
    Parousia 5:858,791
    Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
    par-oo-see'-ah Noun Feminine
    Definition

    1. presence
    2. the coming, arrival, advent
      1. the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God

    NAS Word Usage - Total: 24
    coming 22, presence 2


    Please note that coming / Parousia means................ presence / coming or arrival / advent.


    *** look again at the definition where it has the "a." and then states :


    1. "future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment ,the and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God. " ​


    That is not a Greek definition but rather a theology of their perspective of what Parousia means. This is excatly how people get confused.

    There are two definitions for Parousia . Above you can re read those two definitions. The word can mean both definitions at the same time, let me explain.

    Jesus' Parousia meant His arrival, His coming or His advent and that Parousia brings with it His presence. There is nothing in the definition of the Greek word Parousia which means "bodily" or "raising the dead" or "physical" or otherwise. I understand why they added their " .a " theology but it is simply not a definition of the Greek word Parousia. Please go look it up for yourself in the Lexicons.

    ​ What will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age ?
    The disciples understood that Jesus' arrival, advent, coming, second appearing........................ would usher in the "end of the age".

    Questions we should be asking ourselves who want to understand the scriptures are as follows :

    1. What is a age and what is the definition of it ?
    2. Are there more than one age ?
    3. Where are these ages mentioned in scripture ?
    4. What would cause the disciples to tie and or connect Jesus' coming with "end of the age " ?
    5. If the disciples were wrong with their questions, where did Jesus correct them ?

    and many others.


    Remember, I started this thread because of our friend Lenny and his JW teachings regarding eschatology. His insistence that the Great Commission is still ongoing and the end has not happened yet.


    **Edit...............You can click on the bible verses in this this thread to see how Parousia is used in the NT. Parousia is not always used just for Jesus' second appearing.


    Stay tuned !
    Last edited by godsdozer; 02-25-2021 at 08:30 PM.

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    #8
    Sorry guys and gals I have been busy with the house flooding repairs and other stuff. I haven't forgot about this thread. :)

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    #9
    Is it possible that this is being out thought? Take for example the scholars of the day, they all missed Jesus, and they were "experts" in the Bible, such experts that they didn't look up and consider the reality in front of them. I say this respectfully, not looking for a fight..lol.

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    #10
    gbs I always respect our discussions.

    I am not sure by what you mean "thought out", are you talking about my responses' needing to be thought out ?

    If that is NOT what you mean, can you please explain ?

    This is one of the problems when we communicate via written words that cause problems, sometimes the writer is saying one thing and the respondent or reader is interpreting differently. LOL

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    #11
    Quote Originally Posted by godsdozer View Post
    gbs I always respect our discussions.

    I am not sure by what you mean "thought out", are you talking about my responses' needing to be thought out ?

    If that is NOT what you mean, can you please explain ?



    This is one of the problems when we communicate via written words that cause problems, sometimes the writer is saying one thing and the respondent or reader is interpreting differently. LOL
    Oh no, your responses are extremely well thought out, more so than mine for sure...lol. I mean when you are reading the scriptures, Jesus discussing the events to come- and arrive at the 70AD conclusion based on that.

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    #12
    Gbs,

    I am going to ride along with you and hope I am following you. If I am misrepresenting you please correct me.

    Quote Originally Posted by grandbassslayer View Post
    Is it possible that this is being out thought? Take for example the scholars of the day, they all missed Jesus, and they were "experts" in the Bible, such experts that they didn't look up and consider the reality in front of them. I say this respectfully, not looking for a fight..lol.

    The scholars of that day (during Jesus' life ) were the Pharisees, Sadducees and the Essenes in a nutshell.

    The Jews of that day definitely missed "who" the Messiah was, and what "kind of" or "nature of" the Messiah they were hoping for. It is all over the N.T. I will provide the text if need be.

    Of course they missed it or didn't interpret the O.T. in a proper way.

    "we have no King but Caesar, give us Barabbas " They so misinterpreted OT that they killed the messiah .
    Last edited by godsdozer; 02-28-2021 at 09:52 PM.

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    #13
    Quote Originally Posted by grandbassslayer View Post
    Oh no, your responses are extremely well thought out, more so than mine for sure...lol. I mean when you are reading the scriptures, Jesus discussing the events to come- and arrive at the 70AD conclusion based on that.
    If Jesus second coming was in 70AD why would the book of revelation talk about it when that book was written after 70AD. You would think his second coming would have made world news if he came as what's in revelations.
    All sheep are eventually led to slaughter

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    #14
    Quote Originally Posted by godsdozer View Post
    Gbs,

    I am going to ride along with you and hope I am following you. If I am misrepresenting you please correct me.





    The scholars of that day (during Jesus' life ) were the Pharisees, Sadducees and the Essenes in a nutshell.

    The Jews of that day definitely missed "who" the Messiah was, and what "kind of" or "nature of" the Messiah they were hoping for. It is all over the N.T. I will provide the text if need be.

    Of course they missed it or didn't interpret the O.T. in a proper way.

    "we have no King but Caesar, give us Barabbas " They so misinterpreted OT and the messiah they killed him.
    Yes, it was the reality in front of them, but they had studied the scripture to a point that they "out thought" themselves. Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying don't study the scripture, I just wonder if the 70AD conclusions you feel so strongly about, ignore the reality around us?

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    #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff La View Post
    If Jesus second coming was in 70AD why would the book of revelation talk about it when that book was written after 70AD. You would think his second coming would have made world news if he came as what's in revelations.
    Well I agree, but many other learned people that I know are men of faith such as dozer disagree. I think it makes a good discussion, just have to temper it- speaking about myself..lol

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    #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff La View Post
    If Jesus second coming was in 70AD why would the book of revelation talk about it when that book was written after 70AD. You would think his second coming would have made world news if he came as what's in revelations.

    JeffLa, I appreciate your input.

    It did make world news, are you not aware of it ? Have you read Joseph the Jewish wars, or
    Tacitus the roman historian ? I have . And every prophecy that Jesus prophesied about is discussed in the world news of their day. Go read it and get back to me.


    Have you read Revelation ? I have read it , and here I will quote it for you and the timing of the events contained.

    Revelation 1




    New International Version







    Prologue

    1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.
    Greetings and Doxology

    4 John,
    To the seven churches in the province of Asia:





    Jeff, your arugument is not with me . :)

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    #17
    JeffLA,

    If you think the book of Revelation was written in the 90s I would invite you to read Dr. Kenneth Gentry's doctrinal dissertation which is entitled : Before Jerusalem fell.


    Its only 400 pages , I have read it , have you ?

    Have you studied church history on the dating of the book of Revelation ? I have. It has has ebbed and flowed. Please site your Catholics sources. I will responded accordingly
    Last edited by godsdozer; 02-28-2021 at 11:27 PM.

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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by godsdozer View Post
    JeffLA,

    If you think the book of Revelation was written in the 90s I would invite you to read Dr. Kenneth Gentry's doctrinal dissertation which is entitled : Before Jerusalem fell.


    Its only 400 pages , I have read it , have you ?

    Have you studied church history on the dating of the book of Revelation ? I have. It is has ebbed and flowed. Please site your sources from Catholics sources. I will responded accordingly
    I know you questioned Jeff, not me, but I think you are making my point. Do we need to read all of that to reach these conclusions?

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    #19
    Quote Originally Posted by grandbassslayer View Post
    I know you questioned Jeff, not me, but I think you are making my point. Do we need to read all of that to reach these conclusions?


    Gbs,

    people only need to read enough to prove their point so to speak in modern Christianity. It is a sad day, but that's where we are at.

    So many well meaning pastors today in Christianity have no clue as to our history.


    No, gbs ............................... we have to read the Bible in context as I have provided, sometimes in Bold lettering . A child can read what I have posted from the word of God. its only adults that twist this stuff . :(

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    #20
    Quote Originally Posted by godsdozer View Post
    Gbs,

    people only need to read enough to prove their point so to speak in modern Christianity. It is a sad day, but that's where we are at.

    So many well meaning pastors today in Christianity have no clue as to our history.




    No, gbs ............................... we have to read the Bible in context as I have provided, sometimes in Bold lettering . A child can read what I have posted from the word of God. its only adults that twist this stuff . :(

    I understand, I read all of that and come to a different conclusion as you. Jesus had a plan in mind, you said it yourself when he asked the message to go to the Jews before the Gentiles. Its clear the Jews didn't get it, that changes things. No I don't think Jesus was duped or surprised, he knew what was going to happen.

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