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    #21
    Jesus Christ calls himself Jehovah, does that make him a liar? Surely not!

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    #22
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    #23
    Good afternoon Lenny,

    You made this statement above : "The vast majority of Jehovah's Witnesses alive today have an earthly hope of living forever on the earth as Jehovah originally planned."


    Where in the bible does it state or teach Jehovah originally planned for us to live forever on the earth?

    Thanks !


    ​

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    #25
    Lenny thanks.

    God never said the human body was never going to die a physical death or the physical body was created immortal. Please point out the text in the bible that says that ?

    To keep it simple, just post the verse.

    I read all of the verses you provided and none of them support your idea that God's original plan to live physically forever. I will say this, If it was Gods plan it wouldn't have changed. Mankind's sin did not surprise God or make him go to plan B. ugh


    God said in Genesis "the day that you eat of it you shall surely die". Well, that is exactly what happened to them. They died spiritually / separated from God / removed from His presence/ banished from the garden ect. They did not die physically until several hundred years later.
    Last edited by godsdozer; 01-16-2021 at 04:50 PM.

  6. Lenny B LennyB's Avatar
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    #27
    Again more conclusions never reached absent the watchtower.

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    #28
    When we look closer at the statement Jehovah made to Adam stated above, we notice Jehovah warned Adam that "in the day you eat from it you will certainly die". Some may doubt the legitimacy of the Bible since Adam did not die that day. Some even come up with other ideas that Jehovah meant Adam spiritually would die that day, and some may even believe that God originally planned for man to die anyways, regardless of whether or not he sinned. In the cases just mentioned, they are all incorrect understandings.


    ​ I think you answered my question in the underlined portion.

    The problem form there, you change what the bible actually says (by your own admission) and then turn around and teach a incorrect understanding anyway.


    Lenny, thanks again for your interaction.

  9. Lenny B LennyB's Avatar
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    #30
    On a lighter note

    The earth is really not that large of a planet. How crowded would it have gotten if the view God intended everyone who was ever born didn't die from then throughout eternity ? Elbow to elbow would eventually be literal :)

  11. Lenny B LennyB's Avatar
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    #31
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    #32
    So, what was Jesus saying to the apostles in the upper room in these passages:
    John 14
    1 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2In My Father’s house are many [a]mansions; if it were not so, [b]I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

    Further:
    23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.

    25“These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. 26 But the [g]Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. 28 You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because [h]I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.
    29 “And now I have told you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe. 30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me. 31 But that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father gave Me commandment, so I do.

    There is only one other occasion in this Gospel in which the word here translated ‘mansions’ is employed, and it is this: ‘We will come and make our abode with him.’ Our mansion is in God; God’s dwelling-place is in us. So ask yourselves, Have you a place in that heavenly home?

  13. Lenny B LennyB's Avatar
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    #33
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    #34
    Quote Originally Posted by LennyB View Post
    Jesus said the above because it is true.

    Before the explanation why it is true, a little information for readers on the word "Mansion" in the scripture at John 14:1-4.

    Below are two images [Click on them to enlarge]. One of the early Peshitta Interlinear Aramaic to English . The other is the early Greek to English text. Notice translators of those early manuscripts use different words and phrases for the word "Mansion". One uses the word phrase "House of many rooms" and the other uses the phrase "House of many abodes". I just wanted to share that so readers could get a better idea of how Bible translators picked words and phrases that may not been a 100% accurate but still gave the idea to the best of their understanding at the time. The New World Translation phrases it "In the house of my Father are many dwellings places." The Bible speaks of the heavens and the spirit creatures that live there as being organized. Though they are not made of flesh, the Bible describes things in terms humans can understand as in the case of "their living conditions" as it were.


    Attachment 436805


    Peshitta Interlinear Aramaic
    Attachment 436806

    Greek Interlinear





    The reason Jesus said what he said, in the way that he said it, is because of who he was speaking to. He was speaking to those Early Christians who were chosen to rule with Jesus from the heavens. The following explains:



    Who Go to Heaven?



    The Bible’s answer

    God selects a limited number of faithful Christians who, after their death, will be resurrected to life in heaven. (1 Peter 1:​3, 4) Once they have been chosen, they must continue to maintain a Christian standard of faith and conduct in order not to be disqualified from receiving their heavenly inheritance.​—Ephesians 5:5; Philippians 3:​12-​14.



    What will those who go to heaven do there?

    They will serve alongside Jesus as kings and priests for 1,000 years. (Revelation 5:​9, 10; 20:6) They will form the “new heavens,” or heavenly government, that will rule over the “new earth,” or earthly society. Those heavenly rulers will help restore mankind to the righteous conditions that God originally intended.​—Isaiah 65:17; 2 Peter 3:​13.



    How many will be resurrected to heaven?

    The Bible indicates that 144,000 people will be resurrected to heavenly life. (Revelation 7:4) In the vision recorded at Revelation 14:​1-3, the apostle John saw “the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000.” In this vision, “the Lamb” represents the resurrected Jesus. (John 1:​29; 1 Peter 1:​19) “Mount Zion” represents the exalted position of Jesus and the 144,000 who rule with him in the heavens.​—Psalm 2:6; Hebrews 12:22.


    Those “who are called and chosen” to rule with Christ in the Kingdom are referred to as a “little flock.” (Revelation 17:14; Luke 12:32) This shows that they would be relatively few in comparison with the complete number of Jesus’ sheep.​—John 10:16.





    Misconceptions about those who go to heaven


    Misconception: All good people go to heaven.

    Fact: God promises everlasting life on earth for most good people.​—Psalm 37:11, 29, 34.


    • Jesus said: “No man has ascended into heaven.” (John 3:​13) He thus showed that good people who died before him, such as Abraham, Moses, Job, and David, did not go to heaven. (Acts 2:​29, 34) Instead, they had the hope of being resurrected to life on earth.​—Job 14:13-​15.



    • The resurrection to heavenly life is called “the first resurrection.” (Revelation 20:6) This indicates that there will be another resurrection. It will be an earthly one.



    • The Bible teaches that under the rule of God’s Kingdom, “death will be no more.” (Revelation 21:​3, 4) This promise must apply to the earth, since death has never existed in heaven.





    Misconception: Each person chooses whether he or she will receive life in heaven or on earth.

    Fact: God determines which faithful Christians receive “the prize of the upward call,” that is, the hope of heavenly life. (Philippians 3:​14) Personal desire or ambition has no bearing on a person’s being chosen.​—Matthew 20:20-​23.






    Misconception: The hope of everlasting life on earth is an inferior one, offered only to those not worthy of going to heaven.

    Fact: God calls those who will receive everlasting life on earth “my people,” “my chosen ones,” and “those blessed by Jehovah.” (Isaiah 65:21-​23) They will have the privilege of fulfilling God’s original purpose for humankind​—everlasting life in perfection on a paradise earth.​—Genesis 1:​28; Psalm 115:16; Isaiah 45:18.






    Misconception: The number 144,000 mentioned in Revelation is symbolic, not literal.

    Fact: Although Revelation contains symbolic numbers, some of the numbers it uses are literal. For example, it speaks of “the 12 names of the 12 apostles of the Lamb.” (Revelation 21:14) Consider the evidence for concluding that the number 144,000 should likewise be taken literally.

    Revelation 7:4 records “the number of those who were sealed [or, confirmed for life in heaven], 144,000.” In the immediate context of this verse, a second group is contrasted: “a great crowd, which no man was able to number.” Those of the “great crowd” also receive salvation from God. (Revelation 7:​9, 10) If the number 144,000 were symbolic, referring instead to a group without number, then the contrast between the two groups would be lost. *

    * [Similarly, Professor Robert L. Thomas wrote regarding the figure 144,000 mentioned at Revelation 7:4: “It is a definite number in contrast with the indefinite number of 7:9. If it is taken symbolically, no number in the book can be taken literally.”​—Revelation 1-7: An Exegetical Commentary, page 474.]

    In addition, the 144,000 are described as being “bought from among mankind as firstfruits.” (Revelation 14:4) The expression “firstfruits” refers to a small representative selection. It aptly describes those who will rule in heaven with Christ over an undetermined number of subjects on earth.​—Revelation 5:​10.


    Hope that helps ~ Lenny B









    Lenny, I do not agree with your Theology. I can dialogue with you everyday as long as it remains friendly and cordial.

    For those who have participated in some of my threads and or conservations.......................THIS IS A EXAMPLE OF WHY DETAILS MATTER. If you do not get the details correct, you get a theological mess on your hands.

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    #35
    Good people??? Lenny if Good is the standard then we don't need Jesus my friend.

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    #36
    Quote Originally Posted by grandbassslayer View Post
    Good people??? Lenny if Good is the standard then we don't need Jesus my friend.

    gbs, I agree . There is no one good, not even one. I am one of the "not even". This person, godsdozer (Derrell Thomas) needs Jesus the Christ to represent me before God or I have no hope. I was 12 years old when I realized something separated me from God, and it was the person I was at 12 and now today at the age of 56 is the same thing that separates me God. Thank you Jesus you were my propitiation.
    Last edited by godsdozer; 01-17-2021 at 09:12 PM.

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    #37
    Incredible, now you are saying that there is a Heaven and in our resurrection we will be in Heaven with Christ to govern with Him. Yet, GOD and Christ are very clear that there is only one that everyone is bowing down to with worship and exaltation, GOD the Father. Further, there is no need for government since there is no need for laws for everyone is bowing to Jesus Christ ( The Lamb) and worshiping GOD without any other hierarchy of power.

    BTW, what would you know about government, governing, or allegiance to nation nor colors???
    The Watch Tower Society has stated that voting in political elections is a personal conscience decision, though a Witness who takes any action considered to be a "violation of Christian neutrality" may face religious sanctions.
    Jehovah's Witnesses believe their allegiance belongs to God's Kingdom. They refrain from saluting the flag of any country or singing nationalistic songs, which they believe are forms of worship.

  18. Lenny B LennyB's Avatar
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    #39
    It doesn't, because its from watchtower. We can make up a new society tomorrow to explain why we do certain things.
    Respectfully.

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