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  1. #1
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    Forum Suzuki expert

    I know peaple are going to say they don't break but, the other forums have multiple guys who know engines inside and out. Does this one have that guy and if not maybe someone will step up. I know it's quite but it's amazing how much info can come from the ones that know. Are there any Suzuki dealer- mechanics that contribute here? Thinking of re powering and I know they are solid motors but everyday info like is available on the other boards are handy.

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    #2
    Not me!

  3. Member JoePA's Avatar
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    #3
    Moonlighter seems to be involved in them quite a bit, I'm not sure of his background but seems to have a little more info on these engines than most.
    Joe Galada - Tamaqua, PA
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    #4
    Quote Originally Posted by JoePA View Post
    Moonlighter seems to be involved in them quite a bit, I'm not sure of his background but seems to have a little more info on these engines than most.
    Just an educated long term owner here!

    Have leant a LOT about the Suzuki digital gauges and networking, have made it a mission to know just about everything there is to know about that stuff, especially the engine interface based systems, so am happy to help anyone re that side of things. I will claim a solid level of expertise in that field.

    In that regard, the C-10’s get a bad wrap if you read forums like THT. But like everything, the only reports you see are when people have problems, not the majority who dont have problems. The C10’s themselves had problems with early models fogging but that was fixed with bonded screens. Some issues still seems to happen for some people with buttons breaking but the majority have no issues. Whenever I see reports that “my C-10 is broken I only get dashes” I know its not the C-10, something has happened to the NMEA2000 network or engine interface. Fix that, the C-10 then works fine. The gauge itself rarely fails. It does seem that some people cannot follow simple rules for setting up NMEA2000 networks and then wonder why they have problems.... Doh!

    I was a moderator over on the Suzuki outboard parts forum for quite a few years, so picked up a fair amount of info on common Suzuki issues there.

    Am still a member there, what I can say from my own experience and what we see on that forum is that the newer Suzuki engines see VERY few systemic problems.

    I would say that half the reported problems there end up not being Suzuki engine problems, but rather, they are boat problems such as poor fuel systems or fuel supply, dirty fuel, water in fuel and most of all, poor electrical systems on the boats Eg battery and wiring issues that cause engine problems.

    And a decent percentage of the remaining problems are installation issues, where some backyarder or apprentice at the dealer does the install using the same mentality as they had when installing a 1970’s Evinrude. They leave harnesses lying in the bilge, dont support them thru bulkheads etc and then wonder why water gets into joins, cables rub on things and get damaged and short. That sort of stuff. Nothing to do with the engines, everything to do with a crappy installation.

    If I was getting a repower done today with a new Zuke, I would have absolutely ZERO concerns about reliability, performance or servicing.

    The main things to be aware of/tips for newbies to Suzuki would be:

    1. Propellors. Zukes run a dual reduction system that keeps weight forward and their final drive ratios are thus very different to other makes. So you cannot expect the same dia and pitch prop you used on your Yammy, Merc or flea-tec to work on your new Zuke. They typically run a larger dia prop than the other makes.

    So you have to completely change your mindset about props. Engine heights will also be different due to the same thing. Your best resource in this area is an experienced Suzuki dealer, and to check the Suzuki USA website for boat tests to find a similar boat similar engine and see what prop they used. Bass boats are another world to me, so thats where forums like this serve members so well with people sharing their real world experiences.

    2. Electrical system. Your boat’s electrical system needs to be in tip top shape. Suzukis demand good power, otherwise you WILL have problems. So if I had any doubt about my boats electrical system I would have it upgraded when fitting a new Zuke. Don't skimp on batteries, make sure you get one that easily meets Zuke’s specs for your engine. If you see weird fault codes popping up, its almost guaranteed that there is a problem with the boats electrical system (battery connections, battery itself, etc.). Most Suzukis have a separate wire (Google Suzuki white wire) that goes from the battery + or main switch to the ecm (engine’s computer) and if that wire gets compromised the ecm does not like getting bad power. It will cause running issues.

    3. internal engine anodes. Especially in boats used in salt water. But anyway, they must be checked annually and replaced if they are worn down. Ignore them and you have exposed your engine to internal corrosion. Not a good idea.

    4. On larger engines, some salt water guys seem to have occasional issues with the main drive shaft getting stuck thus preventing the lower unit from dropping down for servicing. Seems to affect a few, the majority dont have problems. So it may be how they use their engines. Anyway its important to grease the splines and its a very good idea to drop the leg each year to do that. If you do that, you wont have issues, so it comes down to keeping up your annual maintenance regime.

    5. fuel filtration. No modern efi engines like dirty fuel or water in fuel. So the very first thing is to make sure you have a good water separating fuel filter in the line between tank and engine. We do this on even small 25hp engines. Its much easier and far cheaper to change a filter element than get water and gunk into the VST and cause damage that is then expensive to fix. Mostly my friends and I use the RACOR style filters with the clear bowl that you can watch and drain water thru the valve on the bottom.

    Thats about it.

    Suzuki makes self-servicing easy by selling 100 hour service kits specific to each engine that have everything required to do the job. Some things you might not need to replace every service such as anodes, so you can keep them for next time.

    Cheers!

  5. Randy Walker
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    #5
    And that's why this forum is so AWESOME! Great breakdown Moonlighter!!

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    #6
    I can vouch for moonlighter, he knows his stuff and has given me great information.

    Bass boats are indeed a different animal. The gear reduction system is for bigger props, but us relatively small bass boats won't see a lot of the benefits. Great for larger offshore boats, not well suited for bass boats. Suzuki is realizing this and their newer engines have gear ratios better suited for us bass boaters. For those of us that bought too soon, we just have to deal with our weird gear ratios. This problem affects the 200 horsepower motors and below. I believe the 250s get decent speed but someone can correct me.

    I also personally have experienced what happens if you don't supply the motor with good power. I was running up river when I suddenly got a variety of error codes. My voltage was wacky as well. Turns out my negative battery terminal wingnut worked itself loose. Make sure those connections are clean and tight! No wingnuts! Use nylon lock washers.

  7. Member
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    #7
    Wing nuts??

    Wiiiing nuts!!

    LOL!!

    Anybody here who has wing nuts on their boat’s battery terminals, give yourself an uppercut, now!

    Actually make that 2 x uppercuts, one for each wing nut!

    I have often wondered about prop diameter on bass boats. Not a big population of high powered bassboats here in Aus - apart from anything else, we have a at least theoretical max legal speed limit of 40 knots on most waterways.... and our lakes arent that big generally either!

    I fish with a friend and his “bassboat” is 16ft with a 70hp Zuke. Goes plenty fast enough for me, lots of big bugs flying around here, one of them in the eye at high speed and Id be wearing a glass eye!

    But I do wonder whether the mindset there may be rooted in “what worked on my Yammy” thinking, at least as far as prop diameter goes.

    I was thinking about this and about my friend who brought a Seaswirl Striper 2301 cuddy cab into Australia from the USA. As you probbaly know, they are a fairLy big lump of a boat - high, wide and heavy. It came in with a 250HPDI Yamaha on it, but the PO had overpropped it so badly that it would barely turn 4500rpm at WOT. Despite my mate immediately re-propping it correctly, it lasted barely 18 months before it went BOOM and that was all she wrote!

    So he repowered with a DF300 zuke. Ran a 3 x 16 x 20 Suzuki stainless prop. Which is the dia that they are designed to run, at least in offshore boats.

    Man, did it get up and boogie for a big boat, and did that big Zuke sound great at WOT or what - it sounded like a Cosworth V8 F1 engine on the back! Music to a revhead’s ears!

    It pulled 85km/hr loaded up for an offshore fishing trip WOT at 6150rpm. And nearly threw me out the back when he hit it hard from a dead stop.

    Thats nearly 53 on the archaic mph scale (sorry LOL). Pretty decent speed for a big, high, deep V hull, heavy boat!?

    Makes me wonder why a 16” dia prop of suitable pitch on a light bassboat wouldnt really boogie too? Or maybe they just dont come in big enough pitch? Hole shot suffers? Must be some reason I guess...

  8. Member
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    #8
    I run a 16 inch diameter 23.5 pitch on my new 2020 DF 200. It does pretty good, tops out a little over 62 MPH. I had a 4 blade but the hole shot was poorer. It's on a Stratos 295 XL 19 feet 5 inches.

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    #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonlighter View Post
    Makes me wonder why a 16” dia prop of suitable pitch on a light bassboat wouldnt really boogie too? Or maybe they just dont come in big enough pitch? Hole shot suffers? Must be some reason I guess...
    Great question Moonlighter. I'll do my best to explain because this is an issue I have become intimately familiar with. Word of caution, I use the term prop slip a lot in this explanation, if you don't know what that is look it up.

    I've scoured the internet and there are actually a few forums where people with short gear ratio Suzukis are asking why their top speed is so slow compared to competitors. I myself have a 19 foot bass boat with a 200. With a Merc or Yamaha I should be able to touch 70mph with my hull, based on what other Falcon boaters have reported (as well as typical speed for my length of boat with a 200). Yet I'm lucky if I can touch 60mph. Now a lot of folks reply "just up your diameter", but that's WRONG. It goes back to prop theory and practice. When calculating speed and prop slip, ask yoruself, why do those prop slip calculators don't have a "diameter" variable field? Quite simply, it's because diameter has no bearing on top speed. It's a function of gear ratio, rpms, prop slip, and propeller pitch. Diameter affects prop "efficiency" (meaning less prop slip, and likely better acceleration/holeshot). That's why these short gear Zukes are great for bigger offshore boats, like your buddy's Seaswirl. A smaller diameter higher pitch prop will just lug because the hull is so heavy, and hull shot will probably be pretty bad. That's why your buddy wasn't hitting WOT RPMs. Slap on a larger diameter lower pitch prop, more rpms, less prop slip, more speed. That's important to highlight. Less prop slip = more speed!

    Juxtapose that with our smaller bass boats. Where top speed is usually primary and holeshot is secondary. Let's say I'm having speed issues with my DF200 on my 19 foot bass boat. Joe comes along and with good intentions sees I have issues, and enthusiastically suggests "lower your pitch and up your diameter!". After all, this worked for Joe with his 23 foot offshore rig, why wouldn't it work for me and my bass boat? And that's the crux of the issue, a lot of the advice has good intentions but is WRONG. It worked for Joe because that 26 pitch wasn't spinning fast enough and lugging. he was only turning 4800 rpm at WOT because his boat is damn heavy. For me, that same 26 pitch is hitting 6100 like it's nothing. A larger diameter won't do anything except maybe make hole shot better, and I definitely don't want a smaller pitch. This is a prime example of use cases being very different. Joe was not getting rpms and his prop was not being efficient. Whereas I'm getting rpms, and my prop slip percentage is very efficient.

    You might ask, Jerry, your hitting 6100 rpms, you're propped correctly, why are you bitching and moaning? The reason is because buddy over there, with his Falcon 195 (same boat), and a 200 Merc, is getting 70 mph easily to my 60 mph (on a good day mind you). No matter what the anti-speed snobs say, that's a very significant difference. In fact, his boat with a 150 merc probably gets the same speed I'm getting. Problem is, I paid for a 200. So my boat is getting proper rpms, my prop slip percentage is very low, why is it slow compared to the competition?

    It all goes back to the gear ratio. Those short gears are great for spinning large diameter props for larger boats. Gets them in the proper rpm range, and the difference in speed for those larger boats is negligible because the big hull (read large prop slip percentage) is such a big factor in the equation. Here's a hypothetical scenario: A 200 merc with a 3x15x19 probably pushes a 23 footer the same as as DF200A with a 3x16x23. The merc is spinning the lower pitch prop faster, say with 20% slip. The DF200A (with it's shorter gears) is spinning the higher pitch prop slower, but with greater efficiency, with say a 12% slip (remember less prop slip translates to more speed). End result is small differences in top speed. Room for improvement with propeller slippage for these larger boats allows for comparable performance.

    For us bass boats the situation is completely different. When you're running at single digit propeller slip numbers, you're already very efficient. There's little leeway for improvement. There's no such thing as negative slip, the propeller cannot move faster than what the formula dictates. If you do see negative slip most likely the specs were wrongly inputted or the prop was not spec'd right (A 23 pitch is really a 24 pitch due to cupping, mislabel etc.). Anyways, I digress, back to bass boats. A 200 merc with a 1.75:1 gear ratio is simply spinning the prop MUCH faster than a DF200SS with a 2.5:1 gear ratio. Not even close. That merc can spin a 25 pitch prop and touch 70 mph on a 19 footer easily. Whereas I'm spinning a 27/28 pitch prop and I get 60 on a good day. Again, bass boats are dealing with single digit prop slip percentages. They are highly efficient in the regard, contributing to speed. Remember the 4 factors of speed? When prop slip is that low, speed because almost purely a function of gear ratio, rpms, and pitch. Gear ratio, gear ratio, gear ratio. I would need to turn a 33-34 pitch prop to get the same speed as competitors. Is that feasible, not really. I think only the Mercury Bravo series goes that high.

    Just to hammer it home, here's the conclusion: Back to the offshore boat example. We're dealing with double digit prop slip numbers. So yes, while that merc is spinning the prop much faster, the Suzuki is spinning it slower but with much greater efficiency, greatly decreasing prop slip. That decrease in prop slip makes up for the slower turning prop. But bass boats are already running low prop slip numbers because of the smaller hull and shape. So the benefits of a larger diameter prop are lost and the result is just a slower motor than the competition.

    Hopefully that helps people understand the cause of the issue. Often times people throw out advice without really thinking about what that advice means. It worked for me, it should work for you right? Wrong!
    Last edited by th365thli; 08-11-2020 at 11:24 PM.

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    #10
    Quote Originally Posted by billnorman1 View Post
    I run a 16 inch diameter 23.5 pitch on my new 2020 DF 200. It does pretty good, tops out a little over 62 MPH. I had a 4 blade but the hole shot was poorer. It's on a Stratos 295 XL 19 feet 5 inches.
    If you have a 2020 DF200SS it should have a 2.0:1 gear ratio, changed from 2.5:1. I would try a 25 or 26, you should be getting upper 60 mph.

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    #11
    Quote Originally Posted by th365thli View Post
    If you have a 2020 DF200SS it should have a 2.0:1 gear ratio, changed from 2.5:1. I would try a 25 or 26, you should be getting upper 60 mph.
    The SS model was $1000 more, so I didn't get it.

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    #12
    I m following this to see everyone’s performance on bass boats. I have a new 2020 DF200SS on a 2002 Ranger 520 DVX. Dealer installed a Solas Rubex HR4 (4 blade 14 1/8 x 19) prop. Hole shot is okay but the top speed I have been able to achieve is 49.6 mph. Boat is carrying fishing load, 58 gallons of gas, 2 men, 5 batteries, etc. some have suggested I try the New Suzuki 19 sport prop. I know that even with zero slip, a 19 pitch prop at 6000 rpm top end should be 54 so I’m looking for more pitch. Any suggestions will be appreciated.
    Bill Roach
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    2002 Ranger 520 DVX
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    Ulterra 112
    Lowrance HDS 12 Live bow
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  13. Member
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    #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Roachjwr View Post
    I m following this to see everyone’s performance on bass boats. I have a new 2020 DF200SS on a 2002 Ranger 520 DVX. Dealer installed a Solas Rubex HR4 (4 blade 14 1/8 x 19) prop. Hole shot is okay but the top speed I have been able to achieve is 49.6 mph. Boat is carrying fishing load, 58 gallons of gas, 2 men, 5 batteries, etc. some have suggested I try the New Suzuki 19 sport prop. I know that even with zero slip, a 19 pitch prop at 6000 rpm top end should be 54 so I’m looking for more pitch. Any suggestions will be appreciated.
    You have a very unique combination. Not many 20 footers have 200s on the back, much less Suzuki's. That should be the 2.00:1 gearcase and there's virtually no user info on that since it's so new. You'll have to be the guinea pig on this one. If it were me I would stick with a four blade and try and look for something at least 14.5 in diameter and 21 pitch. However, this is pure estimation on my part. Try and find a place that lets you try out props before buying (or allows return/exchanges). Good luck!

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    #14
    Maybe what we need is to start a sticky thread that includes full details of bass boats with Suzuki’s and “performance reports” done along the same lines as those done on Suzuki USA website. I looked there and unfortunately there dont seem to be any DF200 SS model tests, nor any on bass boats.

    Reports along these lines would be very helpful, seems to me:
    http://www.suzukimarine.com/Product%...0Bay%20DF200TX

    If that sounds good maybe a template can be created that is easy to download and fill in...

  15. Member
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    #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonlighter View Post
    Maybe what we need is to start a sticky thread that includes full details of bass boats with Suzuki’s and “performance reports” done along the same lines as those done on Suzuki USA website. I looked there and unfortunately there dont seem to be any DF200 SS model tests, nor any on bass boats.

    Reports along these lines would be very helpful, seems to me:
    http://www.suzukimarine.com/Product%...0Bay%20DF200TX

    If that sounds good maybe a template can be created that is easy to download and fill in...
    I'm in, we just need people to actually contribute.

    I got off the phone with a local Suzuki dealer. I had some questions about switching out lower units. He called his Suzuki rep and they recommended AGAINST it. I guess it it's not as easy as a direct swap. He did say that they are aware of the speed issues that the short gears face and they're developing a new line of props to mitigate those issues. No idea when those will get released, soon I hope.

    This is my biggest issue with Suzuki, they have a great product but they don't interface at all with their customers. You have to go through a dealer, and obviously some dealers are better than others. Contrast that with Mercury who actually has a rep post on bbcboards from time to time. I wish they were more transparent on what they were doing, their direction, reactions to customer feedback etc.

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    #16
    Just thought I'd make a small change to my postings. I checked yesterday, my prop is a 3 blade 24.5 pitch 16 inch diameter. On my bass boat, depending on load and trim, I get 1 MPH per 100 RPM, like at 4500 RPM I get 45 MPH + or-, low 60's like 61-62 at 6100 RPM.

    I had posted my prop at a 23.5 since I have several, some are 23.5 I believe.

  17. Member
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    #17
    Won't omc props like rakers etc. work on new suzuki's like they did on older ones?

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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnie View Post
    Won't omc props like rakers etc. work on new suzuki's like they did on older ones?
    Different splines on the 4 strokes vs 2 stroke Suzuki’s.

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    #19
    I’m following because I’m thinking of repowering with 200ss on basscat P2.

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    #20
    GUYS i posted a few days ago, there is a change coming on the SUZUKI , JUST going to be a little latter in 2021 since the COV 19 slowed .. GOOD RELIABLE INFO THIS IS COMING FROM. I HAVE A2020 625 BLAZER 250ss running a28 4 blade Suzuki. speed 72.im going to change to a30 bravo. I appreciated the info, from MOONLIGHTER. I will keep you to date as i experience with is.