Garmin gets called out at Crappie championship.

[LWINCHESTER2]

.....but why then is it so hard to keep it straight in 30 fow and so easy to keep it straight in 60 fow....

I don't know how many elements are in the transducer. It has 21 pins so there are at least several. The coverage area displayed is not a cone. Each element, if pinged separately and analyzed separately would have a traditional cone. It's not done that way. The timing of the firings produces multiple cones. The result is a coverage area. Now I am about to get away from facts and into more subjective conclusions based on observations. I do not know the shape of the coverage area but it varies with both depth and range. Garmin has disclosed that there is a weak area at a range equal to the depth and a little farther. We can use the traditional 2d cone concepts as a basis to analyze what this means. The spec of 20 degrees for a 2d cone is measured at a specific strength. If you half that strength the cone will not be 20 degrees. A weak area in the range of the LVS would mean that the coverage area at that distance would be smaller. I have confirmed to my satisfaction that there is not a dead zone and posted the methods used on this board and performed the experiments using ordinary materials and methods that anyone can replicate to either confirm or challenge my results. What these experiments did not show though was how wide the coverage area is at the different distances. I have observed that the width at 60 ft is wider than it is at 30 ft when in 30 ft of water. The pointing gets so delicate at some distances that even the slightest rotation makes the target disappear. That's the weak area. I doubt if most mechanical or electrical rotation system can produce the finesse necessary to stay on target. A hand rotated system would. The Force will, when pointed forward. It's a design feature of the rotation. When the target is at that weak distance, it will only be picked up dead center. I have been experimenting lately with attempting to accurately measure the coverage area at different ranges. That's still a work-in-progress and I have no idea when I will be able to report results. This is such a controversial topic I don't want to get it wrong and I have run into several complications.

I do not understand since it is so widely reported on here that v2.20 was so good why people don't just roll back to that version. I don't agree that v2.20 is any better than v2.41 but that's not relevant to the point. I have confirmed via Garmin engineers that if you roll back to that version that there are no remnants of the later version hanging around. Just don't expect canted performance from a non-canted mount.

[jim mitchell]

Winchester you stated that Garmin said there is a weak zone at exactly where i'm getting my trouble. When talking to many techs and I do mean many none have ever said any thing about a weak zone . I have followed you thru this with all of your testing done everything you suggested . I'm sure you read my post since you said something about pointing with a motorized system and saw my settings that I finally got to have it usable . When I'm chasing fish not moving transducer just going forward with trolling motor range set at 40' when fish enter the weak zone they fade then totally disappear in the arching weak zone then reappear after passing thru the weak zone . The depth ranges that you fish in you will never see a weak zone . When you did the test with small jigs under the float video the bottom jigs at close range did fade in the arching weak zone . As I have stated before this never happened when using my old system last year with the 2.20 software , I don't have 2.20 saved Garmin told me that if I forced it back into my system it could possibly damage my system ???? don't need that I will never use perspective mode doesn't fit my style of fishing . I,m sure that Garmin still has 2.20 available but will not produce that version any more . From what I'm hearing perspective is not that hot anyway . Thanks again for you testing and trying to help figure this out .

[LWINCHESTER2]

Staying off the lake for a few days. Super crowded on my lake for the week of the 4th.

My theory of the area of coverage is that it is resembles a stretched hourglass laid on its side. The narrowest part being at a distance equal to the depth and just beyond. I don't know the size of each bulb or the size of the neck. I do know the size of the neck is very small. Even with the Force, at some distances, any and I mean any movement of the transducer can cause the target to disappear. Fish and schools of fish won't work for making measurements. No way to know how many, how a school is shaped, which direction it is moving. It seems that the fish I see are always moving in some direction. It could be at any angle or speed. That's one of the problems with suspended targets I place. They never stay put. It looks like they will have to be anchored. You'll recall Genec's conclusive experience with a concrete pier. It doesn't move. It's a wide target and it presents a very strong return. If you can't see a bridge pier your equipment is faulty.

Regardless of your gain settings, a specific setting is set to receive and display a return of a specific strength. A school of fish is a strong target. You do not have to be pointed directly at it for it to display. I've seen that with tree trunks that extend under the water. Even if I am successful at measuring the coverage area the results will only be valid for the depths, targets and settings used. The stretch of the hourglass appears to be depth dependent. I'm sure Garmin already has this information, but getting that kind of technical detail from Garmin rarely happens.

You are correct that the majority of my fishing experience limits applying that to shallow situations. The majority of my test situations though are in shallow water. So far I have done no testing shallower than 10 ft. My lake, now at full pool, gives me access to a wide variety of situations. They include long mud flats, rock-rubble, and jagged rock bottoms and submerged vegetation, brush and trees in all sizes. Half of my trips are just fishing. The other half split between fishing and trying to learn something. Most of the ones trying to learn something are inconclusive.

[Royt]

Winchester, I do appreciate your testing but your results and what some of us are seeing is different. I can't explain it.
I do know that when I went out a couple of days ago an entire nice size brushpile in 25 fow about 25 feet in front of my boat with fish on it would completely disappear no matter how I turned my transducer that is mounted on a separate pole that I turn by hand. I could go forwards or backwards 10 feet of so and the entire brushpile with fish would magically reappear. This was a big brushpile that was about 10 feet tall off the bottom. I went to a similar brushpile one cove over in a similar depth and it showed up perfectly fine no matter the distance from my transducer. Again, I can't explain it but I sure do see it.

[jim mitchell]

Winchester what you describe about the hour glass is exactly whats happening don't know why may not be able to corrected by anyone hopefully Garmin can figure it out . I'm not going to keep harping on it just going to keep adjusting setting to get the best results I can get and be able to use for the way I fish .

[mdhacker444]

So I’m in the market and was tossed between the 102uhd ultra vs either the helix 10 or 9. After reading all of this I think Humminbird helix might be the choice

[LWINCHESTER2]

Winchester, I do appreciate your testing but your results and what some of us are seeing is different. I can't explain it.
I do know that when I went out a couple of days ago an entire nice size brushpile in 25 fow about 25 feet in front of my boat with fish on it would completely disappear no matter how I turned my transducer that is mounted on a separate pole that I turn by hand. I could go forwards or backwards 10 feet of so and the entire brushpile with fish would magically reappear. This was a big brushpile that was about 10 feet tall off the bottom. I went to a similar brushpile one cove over in a similar depth and it showed up perfectly fine no matter the distance from my transducer. Again, I can't explain it but I sure do see it.

Roy. Your setup for testing is probable better than mine. The Force is better than other trolling motors straight ahead because the rotation speed is variable. It's slower pointed ahead than back. , but not as delicate as a separate pole turned by hand. If you needed a more delicate pointing all you would need to do is make a longer handle. I've tried brushpiles deep and shallow and they don't disappear for me but I don't like using them for testing as I don't know exactly what they look like. My brush piles are actually tree tops. As our lake level changes it loosens the bank and trees fall into the water. My tree limbs may be bigger than your brush limbs. Again, my testing is only applicable to my targets, depths and settings. I nearly always run Noise Rejection on Medium because Garmin said that's the setting the weak area shows up. I guess Noise Rejection on High would be worse. For a base level comparison it would probably be better with TVG OFF and NR OFF. The ghost tree would be there but maybe the brush and/or fish would show too. The weak area comes from settings to minimize the ghost tree. If you are in shallow water and have your unit set to eliminate the ghost tree, you've probably eliminated more, at where the ghost tree would be seen. I'm trying to put a definition on "weak" in terms of size of lures and width of coverage area. So far I've not been able to pin that down. I've already seen the width of the coverage area get so small on 1/8 oz lures that the pointing is too difficult in a fishing situation rather than a test situation.

[Royt]

Winchester. I have an Ultrex not a Force and my Livescope is mounted on a separate pole made by Fishing Specialties, it is hand operated so I can pinpoint where I'm aiming it. My noise reject is on medium and TVG is off. I'll try turning the noise reject off my next trip. First time I've ever had an entire brushpile disappear before. Yes I've had sections but never the entire pile. I should have taken pictures but I had a friend with me and we were really trying to fish. We had a good day and caught fish with the help of Livescope that we may not have caught otherwise. Just hate that now I do have issues that I never had until several months ago.

Garmin support has been very good to me once I moved up to a supervisor level. At this point I'm just waiting on Garmin to come out with some kind of fix to get my stuff back to where it was when I purchased it almost 2 years ago. Hope they come up with something before my warranty runs out in a couple of months.

I'll try to get some more screenshots on my next trip out after this weekend Happy 4th of July!

[Genec]

Winchester, my point was that it is no different in following a jig in 30 feet of water than it is in 100 fow,for, is if you cast out 35 feet and let it go down 15 feet, the ducer has equal the same direction, i meant it in this way to Garmin. Now to get back to what I am saying about unit,all units are not created equal, for i took black box from a friend and can follow it all the way to my boat from 45 feet letting it sink to 15 feet deep, but put my new black box on boat an at about 35 feet it fades away as well as the fish,i mostly use ducer on tm however in 30 seconds can be on a pole,now what i like to know is how i can follow my bait with his box but cannot with my box ,another thing before my first box went dead i could follow jig very well, so no matter how many people tells me you are not lining jig and ducer up the reason your jig disappeared, i can tell you when it is getting ready to disappear before it disappeared. I to never had a tech tell me at distance of bottom and same distance out the signal would be weak,however i told quite a few of them this and they all were very quiet when I said that. I live near 3 highland lakes and what happens there is they have hard to even rock bottom and this makes it much harder to see jig because the harder the bottom the more the signal will be weaken at same distance out,flatland lakes has much more soft bottom

[BigBry]

Hey you guys, it’s not the box!!!!! You’ve all made a point about a dead zone in the middle also referred to as an hour glass. The software steers the beam. Seems the center element is not steering the beam back the way it did before. The issue may be in the Perspective software in the MFD or how the transducer needs to fire/steer to provide Perspective View. All this stuff has to work in unison.

[jim mitchell]

Ok Bigbry what would your solution be . Winchester has two boxes one with perspective and one without don't know if he has two MFD to run each box . Don't know if he had the box before perspective or forced 2.20 back into it . I know in my case brand new GPSMAP8610xsv never in water installed 2.30 update hasn't worked like old GPSMAP1022xsv even after installing 2.41 update . Do I need to buy a new MFD that hasn't been updated with perspective mode .I know guys that have not updated to perspective mode and they don't have any ghost or weak spots but they won't let me have there systems . Garmin needs to have two updates one with perspective and one without I know which one I would use . Relay your knowledge to Garmin they seem not to listen to the guys that are using and trying to figure out what went wrong .



A bullfrog is only waterproof if he swims forward

[Royt]

Bigbry, I know in GeneC's case both of the black boxes he is using have the 2.41 software. If it is not the black box how can he just change out one black box for another, both with the same software, and get different results?

[Genec]

ROY,YOU BEAT ME TO THE POINT, GOT TO BE IN BLACK BOX,WHEN ONE CHANGE ONLY BOXAND GOES FROM BAD TO BETTER EVEN A 5 YEAR OLD CAN FIGURE THAT OUT ��

[brettw]

My experience:
Bought unit with 2.2, worked well, ignored the ghost tree.
Updated to 2.3 because it was supposed to be better for Garmin 106sv. gt54 side imaging.
Disappointed
Updated to 2.33
Disappointed
Updated to 2.41
Neural on improvement, maybe better
Reloaded 2.2, ghost is back but unit is better.
You are going to have a ghost tree or a dead spot.
My experience indicates the updates just eliminate the tree
by creating the dead spot. Your choice until actually fixed via good update

[LWINCHESTER2]

Jim.
1. About a forced backup damaging your system. Any software update, forward or backward could possibly theoretically brick a system if anything goes wrong. Most companies that produce software, when dealing with support calls will insist you first update to the latest version. It's easier for them if everybody runs the latest version. I don't buy that it might damage your system. Garmin says there there are no remnants of the new software left when you retro a forced update. It can't be both ways. It didn't damage your system when it was a current upgrade. I have not seen one report of a bricked system doing a current or forced update.
2. I have an 8616, 1242, 2 boxes and 1 LVS32

Roy.
1 Disappearing brush pile. I've not see that. By altering pointing, I pick targets back up. I don't doubt your reports about what you've observed. In addition to setting TVG and NR OFF, try gain on Auto Low and Auto Medium. It's going to be messy, but I'd like to know how that affects the weak area and pointing.

mdhacker444. Choose what best suits how you fish.

Gene.
You lost me. I thought your point was that you did see a difference based on water depth.
Yes. Harder bottom does seem to be a factor.
Yes. I think your switching boxes makes a convincing case about the box.

brettw. A couple of differences. I think SI on 455 kHz of GT54 is good. I've not been able to find performance differences between v2.20 and v2.41. Not sure what to do to see the differences you and others report. Not disputing it. Just haven't seen it.

Where some of us may likely differ:
1. Retro forced update is the same as original
2. Ghost trees have always been there.
3. Weak area has always been there. It's also there in v2.20
4. Waiting for better LVS software? Might be a long wait. A completely new LVS with different or more elements may be a better bet.

[Genec]

Winchester, is it possible that they could make a update that would adjust just the bottom element so you could weaken it while turning up gain on the rest, this looks like it would weaken the ghost tree from bouncing back up in your fishing area when you are casting to fish then if someone wanted to fish straight down all he would have to do was turn bottom gain back up. Don't know if possible but if it was it would help those who cast

[pfisher]

Winchester, I do appreciate your testing but your results and what some of us are seeing is different. I can't explain it.
I do know that when I went out a couple of days ago an entire nice size brushpile in 25 fow about 25 feet in front of my boat with fish on it would completely disappear no matter how I turned my transducer that is mounted on a separate pole that I turn by hand. I could go forwards or backwards 10 feet of so and the entire brushpile with fish would magically reappear. This was a big brushpile that was about 10 feet tall off the bottom. I went to a similar brushpile one cove over in a similar depth and it showed up perfectly fine no matter the distance from my transducer. Again, I can't explain it but I sure do see it.

You don't need to explain it. I have posted pictures here, my installer sent video to garmin and pictures. There are youtube videos showing up now with their "prostaff" that have the dead spot. Just don't expect them to point it out.

It's a big issue. Maybe the next system will fix it???

[Genec]

Pfisher,don't hold your breath, lol

[LWINCHESTER2]

Winchester, is it possible that they could make a update that would adjust just the bottom element so you could weaken it while turning up gain on the rest, this looks like it would weaken the ghost tree from bouncing back up in your fishing area when you are casting to fish then if someone wanted to fish straight down all he would have to do was turn bottom gain back up. Don't know if possible but if it was it would help those who cast

I doubt it. They've been working on this much longer than many think. Work in earnest probably began in spring 2012. Lots of things are possible with software but the money is in selling hardware. I always thought there was more potential in the software for the PS30 and PS31. Instead we got the PS21, then PS22. The GLS10/LVS32 never really took off until they made it cheaper to run with the discounts on the echomaps. One thing seems consistent. You can't get both detail and wide coverage. We learned that from the SI history. From the PS22 to the LVS32 we gained detail but lost on range and coverage. For me I would sacrifice the detail of the LVS32 for better coverage. Say, something between the PS22 and LVS32. Some say they want better detail. If Garmin does that, I think it will flop like Spotlight Scan. Right now I have both but it takes two transducers. I run the PS22 and LVS32 at the same time and display one over top the other. I use the PS22 to locate targets and the LVS32 to determine what they are. On the PS22 I've not seen any weak areas or ghost trees. They already know what causes them and what it would take to get rid of them. How many elements, how to point them, firing timing, frequencies to use---all that stuff is in their knowledge bank. Like the choosing of detail vs coverage we just don't know what specific performance would have to be sacrificed to get rid of the ghost trees and weak area. We know this. It's a performance aspect they are not willing to give up.

[DonnieG]

I always thought there was more potential in the software for the PS30 and PS31.

Leonard, I agree with this....I have been telling Roy, Gene & Ron this for a long time. Ron decided on the PS-30 using a stick and really likes the results..