Experience with performance after adding Talons

[JordanC]

Hey guys, I own a 2007 Tr-186 and installed 2 10' Talons last spring. Since installing them they have negatively impacted the performance of the boat to the point that I have removed them to test the boat out today and see how it handles without them. Holeshot has been abysmal, not sure if I need to raise the motor or lower it. With them installed I can barely get the boat on plane with a half tank of gas and my pops in the boat with me. The boat has a 175 Optimax on it, 6 inch manual jackplate and a Tempest Plus 24P prop. Ive considered changing to a 4 blade or investing in Lithium batteries to save weight as I also run a 36v Ultrex so I have 220 lbs of batteries in the transom. I honestly didn't think adding the Talons would impact the performance this bad and at this point I'm unsure of which way to proceed. Sell them for a loss, try different props or go with lithiums. Once the boat is on plane I have been able to get up to 58-61 depending on air temps and can fully trim out and hit the limiter. Any advice would be much appreciated.

Thanks,
Jordan

[JordanC]

Pulling the Talons did the trick, Holeshot was maybe 2-3 seconds and despite really rough water the boat handled great. I think the boat just has too much weight in the transom for what it is. Maybe some of the newer boats are built to take on the added weight of shallow water anchors better. I think its going to be a deal where if I really want the Talons I am going to have to go with Lithiums to negate the weight of the Talons. I was expecting more opinions or experiences with this issue tbh.

[Mike2718]

I gave my nephew my old 2003 TR186 with a Merc 150 XR6. It has 2 8’ Power Poles and an 8” hydraulic jackplate. I’m not sure if they weigh more but it has NO problem getting on plane with just a 150. He has added a 24 volt Ultrex since then. He only has 3 batteries but his jackplate is a little bigger so that should add some weight. The heavier jackplate won’t be equal to your 4th battery but it shouldn’t be too far off. I think you may have a little too much prop for all that added weight. With the added weight, your boat will be sitting a lot lower in the water. You may want to try raising your jackplate some but keep an eye on your water pressure.

[Mike2718]

I forgot to ask, what is is prop to pad measurement and what are your rpm’s on takeoff.

[JordanC]

Hi Mike, With the Talons on the RPM at take off is around 3200-3400 with 2/3 PVS plugs pulled out and I am at 4 inches PTP.

[Mike2718]

Hi Mike, With the Talons on the RPM at take off is around 3200-3400 with 2/3 PVS plugs pulled out and I am at 4 inches PTP.

I would not change more than 1 thing at a time because that introduces too many variables. You need to reduce your Prop to Pad to 3” but I would start will pulling the last plug. That will not affect your top end. That will be the easiest thing to do first. Removing the last plug should get your rmp’s up some on take off. You really need to get that prop spinning with such a heavy load. I would see how that works. I would then reduce your PtP. My nephew’s boat gets the best results from 2 1/2” to 2 3/4”. Normally the 24 Tempest would be fine with the 175 but it may be a little too much prop for that load. There are a ton of TR186 with dual anchors that perform very well. That’s why I feel it is just a setup issue. Just change 1 thing at a time and make notes of your rpm’s and water pressure and length of time to plane. This way you can track the effect of each change you make. It may take a little work but you should get issues resolved.

[JordanC]

Thanks Mike, solid advice. My question is if I am already hitting the rev limiter when fully trimmed out will I have even more issues when I raise the motor higher? My motor seems to always have ran hot. Could I just be having to trim it at max due to the extra weight or angle of the transom?

[Mike2718]

Thanks Mike, solid advice. My question is if I am already hitting the rev limiter when fully trimmed out will I have even more issues when I raise the motor higher? My motor seems to always have ran hot. Could I just be having to trim it at max due to the extra weight or angle of the transom?

I forgot reading the part about hitting the rev limiter, however you should actually need less trim, because the trim is trying to lift the front of the boat and the extra weight in the back will want to actually raise the front. I know many TR186 owners don’t need full trim but just a little shy of full. Typically between 3/4 & 7/8. Do you have a pressure gauge? If it is getting hot at wide open throttle, you may have an issue with your water pressure or your poppet valve. My bet would be the poppet valve. That is what controls the cooling above 1500 rpm’s on the old 150 XR6. The poppet valve takes over from the thermostat to provide cooling for the engine. Before I gave the boat to my nephew I could consistently hit about 57-58mph with ZERO chine. I ran a VERY heavy load. He runs a much lighter load and usually hits 62 -63 mph with the 150. I would think the 175 would definitely have plenty of power. Taking the last plug out should help but I’m not sure how much. Like you mentioned, a 4 blade prop may be the best compromise of takeoff and top end. There will probably be some others with a similar setup that will have some additional advice. Be sure to keep good notes. Report back after removing the last plug.

[JordanC]

Water pressure at full rpm is close to 20 on the gauge.

[Mike2718]

Water pressure at full rpm is close to 20 on the gauge.

That is plenty of water pressure. Does your motor ever actually overheat to the point where you get an alarm? Your motor shouldn't be running too hot. I would take a look at your poppet valve. When your motor hits 1500 or more rpm's your poppet valve should "pop" open and take over the water flow from the thermostat. The best way I can describe the valve : It is basically a plastic "piston" valve with a spring that opens between 4 - 9 psi which occurs at 1500 rpm's. The issue I had in the past is the plastic valve, over time, gets hot and "melts" a little bit and gets stuck in the hole it sits in. I had to chisel them out but you have to be VERY careful not to gouge the surrounding wall the valve sits in. It's not hard to change BUT is time consuming and tedious if it is "melted" in the hole. Over time the plastic gets hard and brittle and "melts" inside the hole so it no longer opens and closes properly. That shouldn't affect your hole-shot but is something to look at. Hopefully, taking out that last plug will help your hole-shot. If you decide to raise your jackplate, ONLY raise 1/4" at a time then make your runs and keep an eye on your pressure. I'm not sure of the minimum pressure requirements for your particular motor but the 2003 XR6 is 12psi at WOT BUT it is best to maintain at least 15psi.

[JordanC]

I never had an issue with it overheating. Last year I serviced both the poppet valve and the air/fuel pressure valve. Right now I have the Talons off and the boat screamed out of the hole. I did have all 3 PVS plugs pulled last year and that was slightly better but still bad. I think I am going to have to mess with the motor height first and see what impact that has on the holeshot. The added weight from the talons does force the boat to sit lower in the water at the transom

[Savage]

Shallow water anchors will always negatively effect performance VERSUS not having anchors installed, its just a fact. Every boat will be faster and have a quicker holeshot, without anchors installed.

[JordanC]

Shallow water anchors will always negatively effect performance VERSUS not having anchors installed, its just a fact. Every boat will be faster and have a quicker holeshot, without anchors installed.

Don't get me wrong, I was expecting a decline in performance, just not to this extreme.

[Meadows]

Talons and their mounts are significantly heavier than power poles. Just FYI.

[bowtech71]

I too have dual 10' talons on my TRX 21 and it hurt the performance for sure. Went from a Fury 3 blade prop to a Bravo 1 XS 4 blade and it made a huge difference! The top end is about 2 mph slower than the Fury but the holeshot is much better, mid range is out of this world and the boat handles the load way better due to the transom lifting properties of the prop.

[Cabela10]

Drop a pitch and you should be fine... You need to drop a pitch to carry the extra weight of the Talons... Nothing else is needed. Also, remove 2 full plugs probably on the new prop.