Non-ethanol gas use

[digthemup]

I used to drive for miles to get non ethanol gas.....BUT....Around me, Walmart now sells non ethanol gas. It is medium grade...about 90 octane. That's what I run in boats and mowers and such. Ethanol can cause problems with separation and stratify and I just dont trust it....neither does my Yamaha tech. He has been working on boat motors a long time and tells me to stay away from ethanol if at all possible. So I do. No problems at all.

Have a buddy that used ethanol gas in his Yamaha and treated it. It got to where it would not hardly even get on plane. Took it to the Yamaha shop. What he had in the tank was about 50 percent ethanol according to the tech and the test. We dont know how it happened. We wonder if it separated in the tanks of a station he used in a rural area. I try to stay away from ethanol.

FLFlyer,
Most likely he found a mixture of ethanol and water from condensation due to all that humidity in FL. Unless you are running a high HP motor with 11:1 compression or over, 90 grade is pretty dang good. My supercharged SVT Cobra does just fine with it, so I know that my Merc 225 EFI don't need anymore than that, since it may be slow down the burn too much and cause carbon buildup. In my '02 Skeeter with 150 XO66, I had a 10 micron filter water separator between my tank and motor, which was the same Racor filter set up I ran in all my dump trucks and my semi lowboy. Need that up North with diesel rigs due to hot fuel from main injector pump return to main tank.

[chwebmaker]

Wow that video makes me feel a lot better for spending the extra $ over the last 10 years and driving the extra 10 miles each way to fill up my boat with non ethanol fuel. I also keep 30 gallons of non ethanol on hand for all other yard machines.

[EuropeanAM]

Interesting video... but some of it isn't exactly real-world scenarios (as might apply to your Bassboat). Most manufacturers have designed their systems to withstand up to 10% ethanol content (as a matter of fact- they actually test and CALIBRATE the engines with that fuel).

Length of time a boat is left sitting- how often the fuel is turned over, the type of fuel system (full time vented vs. closed system), atmospheric conditions, fuel blends, and numerous other factors all play a significant role.

Always a good idea to consult the engine owner's manual. In addition to that, most manufacturers suggest:

Fuel Selection:

Make your fuel selections based on the following criteria, IN THE FOLLOWING ORDER:

-High Traffic, Top-Tier (Name Brand) Fuel
-Appropriate Octane Rating (note that there is a big difference between "Required", "Recommended" and "Acceptable")
-Lowest possible ethanol content (NEVER to exceed 10%).
-While it may be preferable to utilize a fuel that contains lower (or no) ethanol, use of fuels that are SUBSTANTIALLY higher octane can result in decreased performance, decreased fuel economy, and potential for carbon buildup. Higher octane fuels burn SLOWER and COOLER.

[DrewFlu33]

Interesting video... but some of it isn't exactly real-world scenarios (as might apply to your Bassboat). Most manufacturers have designed their systems to withstand up to 10% ethanol content (as a matter of fact- they actually test and CALIBRATE the engines with that fuel).

Length of time a boat is left sitting- how often the fuel is turned over, the type of fuel system (full time vented vs. closed system), atmospheric conditions, fuel blends, and numerous other factors all play a significant role.

Always a good idea to consult the engine owner's manual. In addition to that, most manufacturers suggest:

Fuel Selection:

Make your fuel selections based on the following criteria, IN THE FOLLOWING ORDER:

-High Traffic, Top-Tier (Name Brand) Fuel
-Appropriate Octane Rating (note that there is a big difference between "Required", "Recommended" and "Acceptable")
-Lowest possible ethanol content (NEVER to exceed 10%).
-While it may be preferable to utilize a fuel that contains lower (or no) ethanol, use of fuels that are SUBSTANTIALLY higher octane can result in decreased performance, decreased fuel economy, and potential for carbon buildup. Higher octane fuels burn SLOWER and COOLER.

Last bullet point explains why mine runs like garbage on the high octane non-ethanol stuff that's available around here but runs great on E10 87!

[PolarKraft195]

I'll take my non ethanol gas!

[Bassnailer]

An additive to remove it? Can you point out an additive that will remove ethanol from gasoline?

Water removes ethanol from gasoline...of course, you must then remove the water by draining it off the bottom of the container which isn't really all that practical in a boat.

[EuropeanAM]

Water removes ethanol from gasoline...of course, you must then remove the water by draining it off the bottom of the container which isn't really all that practical in a boat.

Wow. That's one of the silliest things I've heard in a while!

[RangerRic]

Don: - could you quantify "SUBSTANTIALLY higher octane"
e.g. for a ProXS four stroke, would that be above 90, 93, or ???

Thanks.

[lpugh]

An additive to remove it? Can you point out an additive that will remove ethanol from gasoline?

Water, though I would highly recommend against that, even if you could remove the alcohol you would be left with fuel with dangerously low octane

[EuropeanAM]

Don: - could you quantify "SUBSTANTIALLY higher octane"
e.g. for a ProXS four stroke, would that be above 90, 93, or ???

Thanks.

Since that engine requires (and is calibrated for) 87 octane, 87 octane is preferred (I would not recommend any higher than 89). While 89 might provide a couple of octane points in case of degradation, it will not offer any other real benefit (and may actually reduce performance and fuel economy).

[n2ratfishin]

Great video, answered the question.

[Dan21XRS]

I'm going with the engineers and Don... Dan

[unknown angler]

The video was interesting, one variable would be the aluminum used for the test. Different grades of aluminum have different properties, weldable, bendable, and corrosion resistance just to name a few. If the test pieces were not of the same grade the results would definitely very. I travel 40 miles round trip to buy non-ethanol fuel for my boat.

[Dixie Chicken]

Ethanol *removes* water from gasoline? OOOOOOkaaaayyyyy Like a sponge *removes* water from your countertop, as long as you don't squeeze it!


Of course we all know higher octane burns cooler. But the real truth is ethanol (while making the fuel burning hotter) provides for the engine to make *more* power. Take E-10, E-15, E-30 even... each makes more power than the one before it. BUT... it also makes for MUCH WORSE fuel economy.

My son has a Subaru WRX (only the 2.0 Liter, not the 2.5) but has gotten into a few 'mods' for power, CAI, z-pipe, high flow cats, exhaust, tuning etc. Along with coilovers, wider wheels as well. With that, he's hooked up with a local tuning shop that has a 4 wheel dyno. He's now got his ECU flashed for E-85 and that darned 2 liter makes 332 HP to the ground, all 4 wheels pulling! Thing is... even E-85 is something you have to look for around here, because most stations are E-90 (minimum 10% ethanol).

He said he's also got a tune for E-70 he can flash and "It'll make it scream Dad!"
Of course my bewilderment took over at that point, because I *KNOW* you can't buy 30% ethanol fuel anywhere. Which of course I informed him of, only to be told that they ADD alcohol to the gasoline, buying straight ethanol. (So they can make more power.)
I was like... "So you're going to go to the liquor store and buy a case of Golden Grain?"

So yeah, a *little* bit of ethanol does help make more power. But let it sit for as little as a couple weeks (in NORMAL weather, much less high humidity) and that 87 octane isn't 87 any more. I've always ran REC90 in mine, but when spring comes and we start going weekly again, I'm going to put some fresh 87 in and see how she goes. (Or perhaps 91 w/ethanol.)

[Bassnailer]

[QUOTE=EuropeanAM;10631133]Wow. That's one of the silliest things I've heard in a while! [/QUOTE

Ethanol is hydrophilic, which means it readily forms hydrogen bonds with water. Gasoline is hydrophobic, which means it will not bond with water. Gasoline is lighter than water, so mixing water into gasoline will both remove the ethanol, and sink to the bottom of the tank. While my comment was factually correct, I did write it just to be silly, (that water after it removed the ethanol and sank to the bottom of your tank would be the first thing sucked up by your fuel pump leaving your motor in a very non-running state). So, if I wasn't clear, don't put water in your gas tank. Everyone knows that right?

[EuropeanAM]

[QUOTE=Bassnailer;10640219]

Wow. That's one of the silliest things I've heard in a while! [/QUOTE

Ethanol is hydrophilic, which means it readily forms hydrogen bonds with water. Gasoline is hydrophobic, which means it will not bond with water. Gasoline is lighter than water, so mixing water into gasoline will both remove the ethanol, and sink to the bottom of the tank.

Actually, that "assumes" that once an ethanol molecule bonds to a water molecule it will sink and remain bonded. Unfortunately, this is NOT the case. Ethanol will seek out and bond with water molecules infinitely, not the other way around. And by the point water is dropping to the bottom of the container, tank, line or system, PHASE SEPARATION has begun.

You're correct though: Ethanol or not, don't put water in your gas tank.

[.44mag]

I have two places that I can get non ethanol in 87 octane. Boat runs great on it, I'll stick with that.

[OldTimer57]

Marine manufacturers say 10% is fine. I've been running outboards for 50 years. Since the corn farmers got the feds involved in adding ethanol into gasoline, I have been using E-10. I don't like the 3% drop in power and fuel economy, I don't like how it behaves in the presence of moisture. But reasonably new boats and motors have zero problems with it. And losing 3% in energy content compared to the premium price for ethanol-free makes this an easy decision. It will NOT hurt your outboard if it is new enough that the manufacturer says E10 is fine. Hunting ethanol-free gas is a waste of time. Only point to remember is that if you don't use the boat for a while (30 days) you ought to stabilize the fuel to avoid the usual ethanol issues with absorbing moisture.

Otherwise ignore the issue, it is NOT going to hurt your motor. Older motors have fuel lines and gaskets that might not be happy with ethanol. Older boats have line from the tank to the rear that might not like ethanol. The boat can be fixed by replacing the fuel lines. Ditto for the motor's fuel lines. What other parts might be problematic would depend on the age of the motor. Ethanol has been around for 20 years or so, although it became a "mandate" about 10 years ago. If you motor is less than 10 years old you ought to be good to go. Older and you need to do some research on the fuel lines used in the motor/boat, and I would ask the manufacturer of the motor if there are other potential problems ethanol might cause. Some of us have had to deal with ethanol for a much longer period of time. It was frequently used in the Summer in areas of high smog concern, since it is an oxygenator that helps reduce pollution.

For MOST of us, it is irrelevant.

[Justfishing]

Water removes ethanol from gasoline...of course, you must then remove the water by draining it off the bottom of the container which isn't really all that practical in a boat.

Water combines with ethanol and makes goo.

[Justfishing]

Look up phase seperation with ethanol. Ethanol combines with water molcules. This can be a good thing because in very small amounts it will remove the water in gas. To remove water it must pass though the engine with burned fuel.

When ethanol absorbs all the water is can there is phase seperation. The ethanol water mixture seperates from the gas and become a thick goo that will damage your engine.

Several things that differeniat boats and cars is the fuel system and the environment. Most boats dont have a sealed fueled tank. Every day the air heats up and cools. This cycles a new batch of air in the tank.

Try this. Take an empty milk jug and screw the lid on tight. Place it outside and observe it several times a day. At the coldest time of the day the sides will be sucked in. At the warmest time the sides are bulged out. If this was an unsealed container it would have cylced air in and out daily. The moisture in the air combines with the ethanol. The more days the boat sits the more air and moisture. If it gets to the critical level you get phase seperation.

The less fuel in the tank there is a lower buffer to hold the water. There is also more air in the tank from which to absorb moisture.