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  1. #1
    Member esdbass's Avatar
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    Spiral wrap vs conventional,a rod builders question?

    In a punching rod what if any would the advantage be to having a spiral wrap vs a conventional wrap? My old retired rod builder was a fervent believer in spiral wraps but I have friends who are some of the best in the country at this technique and they don't like or find any advantage in that spiral wrap vs a conventional wrap. In fact they feel the spiral wrap impedes .flow off the reel and shortens their pitching distance/ease

    I have rods wrapped both ways but have always felt the spiral wraps had less rod torque on the hook set but some have suggested that just spinning the rod blank before mounting the guides will do pretty much the same thing?

    Thoughts please.

  2. Member DrewFlu33's Avatar
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    #2
    I think you nailed it on the torque point. It's all about efficiency, and you're more efficiently using the blank with the line under it. Besides, you can get away with less guides which makes the setup less tip heavy and more sensitive.

    The real point to make is that there is no disadvantage to spiral wrapping. People have studied this and studied this...I'm of the opinion that the only reason people think a spiral wrap messes up their casting is that they think it looks weird and they can't get it out of their heads.
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  3. Member
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    #3
    I've never found that a spiral wrap impedes casting or pitching distance. Spiral wraps advantages over conventional are less torque, fewer guides (so lighter) and better sensitivity (your line is always in contact with a guide). Disadvantages are that some people don't like how they look and if you don't use rod socks they get tangled easier in your rod box.

  4. Member DrewFlu33's Avatar
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    #4
    Was thinking a bit more about this....there is one additional disadvantage I can think of. It's related to the direction of the spiral. I have one that I picked up off of Facebook built by a guy who got stiffed by the person he built it for. It spirals around the right side (when looking at it holding in your hand) of the rod. That's pretty standard. Problem is, I use left handed reels. That means it's really easy to sit the rod down so that it's resting on one or more of the guides. That one got retired from the rotation and, now that I think of it, I need to sell it.

    That parlays into the next important point: if you're building a spiral wrapped rod, make sure to consider which side the reel handle will be on and have the spiral happen on that side of the rod. That way the reel handle prevents the rod from being laid on the guides.
    2011 Skeeter ZX225
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    #5
    I've built spiral for both bass and offshore bottom fishing. The offshore stuff is the only rods I can notice any benefits . I do spine my bottom contact blanks. use straight axis on cranks and spinners. As said above, a few less guides resulting in less tip weight may be all you notice on a bass rod.

  6. Member esdbass's Avatar
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    #6
    Quote Originally Posted by DrewFlu33 View Post
    Was thinking a bit more about this....there is one additional disadvantage I can think of. It's related to the direction of the spiral. I have one that I picked up off of Facebook built by a guy who got stiffed by the person he built it for. It spirals around the right side (when looking at it holding in your hand) of the rod. That's pretty standard. Problem is, I use left handed reels. That means it's really easy to sit the rod down so that it's resting on one or more of the guides. That one got retired from the rotation and, now that I think of it, I need to sell it.

    That parlays into the next important point: if you're building a spiral wrapped rod, make sure to consider which side the reel handle will be on and have the spiral happen on that side of the rod. That way the reel handle prevents the rod from being laid on the guides.
    Thanks everyone for the feedback. I have one that wraps to the left and several that wrap to the right, my reels are right handed, I don't notice a difference from left to right but still think in my head that right side is the right way to go for right hand reels.

    I'm not certain about braid not hitting the blank/guides more on the spiral wrap though? I've used identical rods and reels with guides on top vs spiral and the spiral with braid seems to pitch less distances.

    I'm more concerned about power and less torque.

    Can I please hear some more from others with experience of both guide set ups?

    Thanks

  7. Member DrewFlu33's Avatar
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    #7
    The only reason the direction of the spiral makes a difference is for protecting the guides when the rod isn't being fished. It makes no difference in functionality whatsoever. You want them spiraled on the same side as the reel handle - the right side in your case - because you physically cannot lay the rod down on the spiraling guides...the reel handle won't allow it. That's the only reason though.

    My main flipping and pitching rod is one I built last year. It's spiral wrapped, with AirWave guides of all things (if you've not used them, they'll blow you away with how strong they are for their size and weight...actually ended up with the casting version by mistake, but figured I'd give them a shot to see how they hold up), in a (-10) - 60 - 120 - 180 pattern....the -10 offset for the first guide isn't a huge deal for a flipping stick, but isn't a bad idea to prevent line from being stacked more to one side when wound onto the reel, a bigger concern where more line is coming off the reel than with pitching and flipping. I not only flip with braid, but I do so with a 25 lb leader where the knot runs through the guides. I promise you the distance thing is in your head. If the line is hitting the blank, the guides are too short, or (more likely) have not been properly spaced.

    The additional power and less toque (twisting) is not in your head, though. The way rod blanks are manufactured means that they have a sort of twist built in. When you're forcing them to bend in a straight line by having the guides arranged that way, you're fighting against the way they naturally want to flex, hence the torque, and losing efficiency, hence the power aspect. Spiral wrapping gets away from that. Plus the advantages of weight savings with less guides and improved sensitivity as willwork pointed out. If nothing else, and I'm almost positive I saw a scientific test on this, I suspect spiral wrapped rods will actually outcast traditional guide trains because of fewer guides causing less friction.

    I do need to be clear...Is the difference always really noticeable? Nope, it's honestly probably hard to tell for the average angler in most cases unless you pay attention to your wrist hurting after setting the hook a bunch in a day or can fish the same blank with two guide configurations side-by-side. But whatever difference there is puts the advantage toward spiral wrapping.

    For whatever it's worth, I think that like many things, a huge part of the perception of these rods is all in people's heads. Just like the days where you feel like you're going to catch the fire out of them then actually catch the fire out of them, or when you know you're not going to catch anything and don't, confidence drives the way we feel about a lot of things. If it's in your head that the spiral is messing you up, it will mess you up.

    I'm going to step aside now, don't mean to dominate the conversation. I really geek out about this stuff!
    2011 Skeeter ZX225
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    #8
    If the load is on the opposite side of the blank from the guide/tip top, there will always be some sort of torque in the blank. The line, blank, and load will rarely line up, so there will typically be a moment arm. Our bass rods tend to have small guides/tip tops, so the moment arms will be quite small leading to a small torque. The average person probably can't feel it from bass gear. I can't comment about affects from inherit twist. There's a video out there showing that a rod with guides on top will tend to want to turn over under load.

    I've built a few rods, and prefer to spiral wrap unless it something like a crankbait rod that see most of its load on the top side of the blank. While the torque may not be noticeable, being able to move the guides down the blank and removing a guide is. I haven't found that spiral wrapping affects casting distance, especially if you are careful in your guide placement and alignment. My braid and leader knot do not come in contact with the blank at the transition.
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    #9
    If you're concerned about torque, then a spiral wrap is the way to go. As far as the spine of the blank causing the torque you're feeling? Not really. A blank's spine changes position along the blank. If you don't believe that, there is a simple way to prove it. Just move the position of your hand that is applying pressure on the blank. You'll see what I'm saying.

    The torque you're feeling is because with a conventional wrap, the guides are on top of the blank. When the line is under tension, it naturally tries to find the straightest path between two points. I'll call them anchor points. One anchor point being the reel, the other being your tip top. The straightest line occurs on the concave side of the curve. The curve being the loaded rod. With a conventional wrap the line is running along the convex side of the curve. In trying to get to the concave side of the curve, it is pulling the guides it's running through, sideways. The taller the guide's frame, the more the blank is going to twist, and the more torque you're going to feel. It's physics.

    Personally with the height of the running guides I use, either 4.5's or 5's Fuji L or KT guides, I don't even notice the torque. That's not saying it isn't there, because physics shows that it is. I just can't feel it. I will say that I have a few remaining factory rods, and I can feel it on a couple of them. But they have taller running guides than I use on my builds.

    As to whether or not a spiral casts as well as a conventional wrap goes. The line is going from the top of the blank to a bottom. That in itself is causing friction that isn't present on a conventional wrapped rod. Friction through the guides reduces casting efficiency. You're not just thinking there is a difference. There is a difference. It's the same with the torque I just talked about above. Just because I can't feel it, doesn't mean it's not present.

    As far as spiral using fewer guides goes. I won't concede that entirely. If you're using a bumper guide to get the line to the bottom of the blank, you're probably going to be using the same number of guides. A spiral wrap will probably save you one running guide, but IMO if it's saving you more than one running guide, then you either didn't have enough guides on your conventional wrap, or you have too few on your spiral wrap. Again this is just my opinion, based on the type of line path I prefer on spinning rods, which is in essence what a spiral wrapped casting rod becomes. I like the line to follow the curve of the blank pretty closely. I know I use more guides than most builders use, and I am ok with that. I don't use heavy running guides and what little sensitivity I may lose, I more than make up for because I am extracting more power from the blank, and I have more peace of mind when landing fish.

    I will agree with Drew in that a lot of the negativity you hear about spiral wraps is due to the way they look. The way they look is exactly why I will never build a casting rod with a spiral wrap. It's not because I don't believe there are advantages to a spiral wrap. I know there are. I just don't feel they're as evident as they're made out to be. It's kind of like braided line. A lot of people swear by braided line, but I am not one of them. Yes it has it's advantages, but it has it's disadvantages as well. For me in all but very specific uses, I feel its disadvantages out weigh it's advantages.
    Last edited by Bassbme; 10-11-2019 at 05:50 PM.

  10. BBC SPONSOR cidgrad's Avatar
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    #10
    Have your guides wrap the same side as your reel handle... otherwise they are opposite the reel handle and the off axis guides get banged against the deck of the boat when stowed.

    Ask yourself this... how often when fighting a bass do you pull straight up and down? Majority of people I see pull at 3/4 or horizontal - even on hookset. If you are pulling like that... you are essentially about the same with guides on top or bottom.

  11. Member esdbass's Avatar
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    #11
    Bassbme and Drew, thanks for all those thoughts. I like my spiral wrap rods a lot and my favorite punching rods ( I have a lot of them) are all spiral wrap ( It doesn't hurt that my favorite two are St Coix top of the line blanks with torzite micro guides and counter balanced internally) Unfortunately my rod builder Stan McClain at Shakedown Rods retired a couple years ago and I haven't found one locally to work with yet that can do work in a timely manner.

    Bassbme, with all due respect if your punching "grass type cover" that is thick and canopied with a big weight with out any wood in it, braid is superior to any other line period! There isn't a top mat puncher in the world that would disagree.

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    #12
    esdbass, I wouldn't disagree with your stance on braid for punching either. In my earlier post I said I use it for very specific situations. Punching is one of those situations. Flipping and pitching into holes in heavy vegetation is also one of those specific situations. As is hollow bodied frogs over heavy matted vegetation. For me that's about it. Although I do use braid as the main line for a Carolina rig from time to time.

    If I need a line that floats, or a line with a larger diameter to help control a baits running depth I'll use a nylon mono filament line. For everything else, I use fluorocarbon. Love the discussion though.

    Good stuff

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    #13
    Just finished my first ever spiral wrap rod and took it out yesterday to cast with it. Didn’t appear to impede my distance any can’t wait to actually fish with it.

  14. Member esdbass's Avatar
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    #14
    Bassbme, Good catch on the frogging. I once fished with a guy who was using heavy mono and he couldn't figure out why my hooking and landing ratio's were so much higher than his over a two day trip. I spend a lot of time in Florida fishing heavy "grassy stuff" and there a bunch of bait's and techniques really there is no substitute for braid. ( swimming Big EZ's in the hay fields in South Bay on the Big O is one that comes to mind as well)