Lithium as start/crank/house battery reports

[RangerZ]

fishnfireman, I most certainly have, engine keeps humming. Prayers for Texas, flooding is awful there now.

[Lou r Pitcher]

Not a very smart move to disconnect a battery from today's engines dependant on a modern operating and running alternator. Several outcomes with bad consequences can occur.....

If the alternator was supplying a high amp current to recharge the battery, the abrupt disconnect can highly stress/fail the output current drivers of the engine's regulation circuit.

Removal of the battery as well interrupts the important filtering effects of the large capacity battery. The normal steady internal DC supplied to the various engine's electronics becomes contaminated from ignition rfi, electrical motor noise, electronic switching transients and other sources.

[RangerZ]

Yes, all are theoretical assumption's. I'm stating the actual facts that apply to my experience only. I assure you the engine runs from the alternator and has absolutely nothing to do with the battery shutting off, and I presume you know so. Mercury alternators have had a very known fact of high current voltages and have not affected the engine componets such as ECMs, rectifiers or coils. The high voltage appears in the form of battery electrolyte boiling away resulting in dry battery problems. Now they appear in lithium batteries and that is "all" lithium batteries because the same high voltage will shut the management board down. The management board does its job and when it does shut down it has no effect on the running engine. It becomes known by depth charts shutting off requiring to be restarted after the battery switches on. This will happen when you switch the engine off and no current allows the battery to turn back on. It cannot affect the engine. If this happens watch your Mercury Smartcraft gauge, you will see the intermittant high voltage while running at speed. Like stated also, this is a small problem with Mercury as they will certainly say "lithium batteries are not supported" regular cover all talk. Fixing the alternator current problems would be quite expensive for the everyday fisherman or boater. Most just work around the problem, while summer time boaters just buy a new battery every year or two, because they have no way of knowing about the high current frying their batteries during ski season, "no Smartcraft gauge to check".
Bottom line, the outboard once started or after being jumped will continue to run, baring an alternator problem, and will have to be switched "off" to shut it down. Same as an automobile.

[bobcoy]

Ranger, I was under the impression with an over charging limit voltage that function would shutdown but the battery would continue to put out voltage. Am I mistaken? Bob

[fishnfireman]

RangerZ
Let me rephrase the question.
Have you disconnected a V8 Racing motor and guarantee what you are saying??

[Team Colibri]

Not a very smart move to disconnect a battery from today's engines dependant on a modern operating and running alternator. Several outcomes with bad consequences can occur.....

+1. Do not disconnect your outboard from the battery while the engine is running.

[RangerZ]

LOL, no I'm not here to make any guarantee's on my specific experience, they are just that "my personal" experience. Any time the lithium battery gets a current over 15V the management board shuts down, to protect the battery itself. This current can be from a outboard or a charger, at 15 Volts the management board shuts down. When the high current is removed or stopped the management board allows the battery to come back on and function.
( If this happen's, it is the same as disconnecting a cable as the battery is shut down and no longer getting or giving current) I have a Yamaha SHO 250, I have experimented with jump starts on it and have had no issues or problems resulting from disconnecting while the engine is running, once again my personal experience. What works for me may not work for you. And I do not recommend disconnecting your battery while your engine is running. The question was the battery has nothing to do with shutting down the engine when the management board see's high current, ideling or at speed. The engine once started runs off of the alternator current. If I was going to use a V8 Race engine, I would at least learn the basic's of that engine and it's componets. I wonder if they are all that different than a normal V8 outboard, in the light of air flow, fuel delivery, exhaust tuner, and a higher out put alternator because of the higher rpm, because the engine runs off of the alternator, and maybe a different gear ratio. All of those things have nothing to do with a battery. I'm not into racing and have no experience in racing outboards, I'm just a 3-4 times a week fisherman. Some things are simple and some are complicated, the fact is a battery is just that, regardless of it's composition. Maybe to think about going to the river and finding you have a dead battery, you have to decide wheter to jump that battery or not? If you are racing, you can go to the race trailer and get a new battery and fire up, if you went fishing, just jump it and go. Not complicated at all.

[RangerZ]

fishnfireman, are you running the Mercury 300R Racing V8? That looks to be an awesome engine. It would be a giant help if we could find why the Alternator regulator's goes intermittant high voltage while running at speed. It has been discussed on several online boating forum's for year's with never an answer. Same ol, same ol, we don't support lithium.

[Hunter689 / Get Outdoors]

It has been found that once once the over voltage occurs it will shut down the BMS at the same time the motor will also have a tendency to lose power as well. This is why Relion and Lithium pros have redesigned their BMS to accommodate the higher voltage spikes.

[fishnfireman]

I'm not looking to solve the reason why the battery will shut down after a certain amount of voltage is exceeded.
I'm looking for you to backup what you say about my motor shutting down at high speeds when the battery shuts itself off. I've been told it has already happened.
So who do I believe?

[RangerZ]

fishnfireman, I don't know anything about your motor. I don't know what battery you are using or have tried to use. In fact I don't know any thing at all about your experience in engines. I'm not qualified to even make a guess about your engine. No one is going to guarantee what will happen to you. I stated in "my" experience "my engine keeps running when disconnected from the battery". The fact is as long as the alternator on the outboard functions properly the engine runs off of it, not the battery. You can use any battery you want. There are some post right on this thread that states some lihium batteries management board's has been redesigned to take care of high voltage spikes coming from the alternator that normally shuts off the battery. That is programmed for the board to shut off at 15V to protect itself.
So what you need to understand is the engine does not run off of a battery. The battery is used to start the engine and maintain power to run a 12Volt system.
As for what you were "told" I can't comment on that either, because I don't know the actual fact's first hand. There are some posts of graphs and charts going off, but not the outboard itself, not the outboard itself is a key item.
Let's look at something else:
Say your automobile's battery is dead. The process would be to jump start the engine. Once the jump start power is removed and the engine keeps running, the reasonable answer is to get the battery checked. If the engine stops when the jump power is removed, the reasonable answer would be to get the alternator checked. Simple fact the engine will run because of the alternator current. Now what is the battery really for, it's there to run your automobile's 12 volt system, power windows, headlamps, air conditioner, etc.
Now, the reason that the lithium battery makers are reprogramming the management boards to not shut down is because "The outboard electical system is putting out over current voltage" this is a very undesireable solution. The outboard current should be corrected, not the battery management board. The way it manifest itself is in the "Charts and Graph's cutting off", this happens why? Because the battery is getting to high of a current and shutting itself off to protect itself and your 12 Volt devices. The aggravating factor is "we have to push the Graph or Charts power button" to restart them, livewells come on because they are on a switch and start as soon as current is restored.
Mike I cannot guarantee anything for you, I certainly wish I could. The technology of lithium is a great source of power for our use. The science of them is complicated for most. Overall I'm very happy with lithium especially IONIC lithium batteries. I hope you can find away to enjoy the same technology as a great number of fishermen on BBC have found.
I'm hopeful we will find why outboards alternators cause the high voltage output. I'm trying to help find answer's not only for myself but so other's can enjoy the technology that's here for us. Once again I don't know if reprogramming the management boards is a good thing or not. Seem's to me that was the purpose of the board to begin with to protect from over voltages for safety and to keep cells charged and balanced.
I hope you find what you are looking for.

[fishnfireman]

You sure can spend a lot of time dancing around a direct question trying to walk back your statements. If you get a chance go back and read my remarks and your response to them. Be nice to have a straight answer to my questions to you after your claim that no motor will shut down when power is cut off

[RangerZ]

fishnfireman, You are the one who need's to do some reading. I said a lithium battery shut down will not shut down a engine. So let's get elementry for you. Go to the boat ramp and wait for a jon boat when a small outboard comes to launch. Notice the engine has a little handle coming from the cowling, the guy will pull that handle and his outboard cranks up and he goes on down the lake, no battery in sight !! I know you are amazed at that one. So why does the outboard manufactuers put a pull rope in the inside of the cowling?(may not be with every engine) To crank the out board is my guess. Now why would that be? It's there in case you have a dead battery or low battery that won't crank the engine. You can get the engine cranked with the pull rope (takes a lot of muscle). In fact you can crank that engine with a pull rope without a battery at all. Once the outboard starts it keeps running off of the ignition and electrical system of the outboard.
No where did I say when power is cut off. The ignition switch is used to cut the power off on the engine, not the battery.
For one owning a Mercury V8 Racing engine you sure don't know crap about the operation of it. (order that $40 buck engine manual) No dancing just a clear fact.
And I will tell you clearly, "A lithium battery shut down will not cut the outboard engine off". That's what the ignition switch does! shut the engine down.
As for you removing the lithium you had on the Opti, and replaced it with AGM, you stated you were not willing the risk of a shut down. I understand that clearly. And Mercury recommends AGM. Mercury does not support lithium.
There are far greater things that can shut that outboard down, like a engine blowing, when it does what are you going to do? Thrown prop, instant boat set down, there are many, many things that can go mechanicaly and electricaly wrong in an outboard engine shutting it down, like running out of fuel (lot of boats have dual tanks that have to be switched when empty). The high speed is the dangerous item that can kill. Don't forget your life vest and parachute.

RangerZ
Let me rephrase the question.
Have you disconnected a V8 Racing motor and guarantee what you are saying??

Answer, No. I do not have access to that perticular engine. But you do, so find out and let me know, please. (while ideling) of course.
In all of the post I made I have never "reccommended" disconnecting a battery while the engine is running, only what I have personally "experienced". There are many componets on a engine that may well require a battery for full optimization and operation.

[grout-scout]

Calm down guys, it’s apparent that these batteries should NOT be used with Mercs and there’s a reason why Mercury doesn’t support using them.

[RangerZ]

Apologies. Mercury does not support lithium is more than likely very true. However there are literly hundreds of guy's using lithium in their Mercury's. Most of the fishermen I know are using them with Pro XS and the new V8 Fourstoke's with great result's. The deal is to, some have or are experiencing graphs shutting down and are hunting the reason "why". None have reported engine "shut down" just graphs in particular. That is all I'm trying to address. No arguments intended, and certainly none going forward. Apologies to all.

[RangerZ]

To clarify, my Yamaha 250 SHO does not have rope starting capabilities. The last Mercury I owned was a 200 EFI BlackMax it had rope starting capability. As all engines get bigger, they may not have the rope start ability either.

[grout-scout]

[catdude28]

Calm down guys, it’s apparent that these batteries should NOT be used with Mercs and there’s a reason why Mercury doesn’t support using them.

Thanks grout, agreed completely. Can't figure out why anybody with a brand new expensive 4s engine would go against the engine manufacturers recommendation. On top of which, replacing troller batteries with lithium and still using an AGM for cranking still reduces a hell of a lot of weight. Would be nervous if I had an engine problem with a lithium for cranking , and taking it in for diagnosis, under warranty.

From Don:

• EuropeanAM
  
  
  Mercury 3L/4 Stroke/Verado ModeratorJoin DateApr 2008LocationGreenville, SC (US)Posts78,800
  
  #3609-23-2019, 07:26 PM
  We're getting out there in the "stars" pretty far at this point with the "what if's".
  
  Sure there are people out there running incorrect batteries with their engines. However- if something does go "awry" with the electrical system on your new V6/V8 product, you will not want an battery of the wrong type or capacity in the system. Any damage caused by use of an incorrect battery would usually not be covered under the engine warranty.
  
  
  
  
  Dual Mercury Master Technician- for Mercury Outboards, Mercruiser and Mercury Racing at European Marine in Greenville, SC.
  Still consider myself a "Marine Apprentice" after 43 years (learn something new every day).
  Mercury Parts, Mercury Outboards, Smartcraft & Accessories, Injector Service, TDR Reeds- BBC Sponsor
  
  
  
  
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[RangerZ]

catdude28, . I think I've read a few post that the trolling motor manufactures do not support lithium either.

[RangerZ]

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