Does the above apply to agm batteries as well? I find this thread to be very informational and appreciate the education!
Does the above apply to agm batteries as well? I find this thread to be very informational and appreciate the education!
Typical academic who thinks that they are smarter than everyone else even though they have produced nothing for society.Originally Posted by OldTimer57
For the record I know much more than you are giving me credit for. I monitor my batteries very closely with a very accurate meter. Most of the time when I come OFF the water after a full day my main battery reads 12.7v so don’t tell me that I don’t understand surface charge.
My career involved analyzing risk. I choose to unplug my battery charger when they have reached full charge. You do what you want but don’t say that there is no downside to doing so because that is just not accurate.
2006 Triton TR196 w/ 200 Optimax \ 2021 AlumaRyder 1860 w/ 200 Rotax
Here's some "typical academic" comments. EXCEPT check the sources I provide:
From Minn Kota manual:
Minn Kota’s Multi-Stage Charging delivers a fast, precise charge profile by automatically controlling current and voltage without overcharging your batteries.
Bulk: During this stage, the charger delivers full current until the battery reaches ~75% charge. A YELLOW LED is lit to indicate the battery is charging in the Bulk Mode.
Absorption: The charging current tapers down while the battery voltage is held at 14.4V (at 77° F). A flashing YELLOW LED indicates the battery is charging in the Absorption Mode.
Maintenance: When the battery reaches full charge, the charger voltage is reduced. A flashing GREEN LED is lit to indicate the battery is in Maintenance Mode and ready to use. After 24 hours, the charger automatically turns off and a steady GREEN LED is lit to indicate the battery is in long term Maintenance Mode and ready to use. The charger will automatically resume charging when the battery voltage drops below 12.6V.
Nothing I see there says to unplug at any time until going fishing. Here is a question from the MK FAQ where MK techs reply:
Will I damage my batteries if I leave the charger plugged in over long periods of non-use (like storage)?
No. Minn Kota's on-board chargers float the battery voltage between 13.2V and 13.5V in the "maintenance" stage (3rd stage). This will allow you to keep your battery charger plugged in for long periods of time without "boiling the battery dry."
Note: It is important to check the electrolyte level approximately every 30 days. Batteries should be filled after charging, and the electrolyte level should be even in all cells and below the fill well in each cell. If the battery plates are exposed before charging, add just enough water to cover the plates. If the battery is overfilled before charging, it may overflow during charging.
This from the Pro Mariner ProSport charger that I am using:
Once your new ProSport is installed and properly connected to batteries you will be ready to plug it in.
3. Connect a heavy duty UL approved extension cord to the ProSport charger first. After connecting the extension cord to the charger, proceed to plug the extension cord to a nearby 120/230 VAC GFCI protected (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupt) outlet.
4. Assuming your batteries are discharged, and your ProSport is factory set (black programming cap installed) for standard Flooded (lead-acid) batteries, you should observe ProSport’s self test mode (flashing red charge mode LED), blue AC power LED turn on, followed by the red battery type LED turning on (red is the factory setting of standard Flooded (lead-acid)/AGM type batteries) and once the green system check OK LED turns on you will notice a solid red charge mode indicator identifying the charging process has started.
Note: The ProSport has built in self testing to insure all batteries are connected correctly. The self test is automatic and will take place everytime the unit is plugged into a 120/230 VAC outlet. The self test may take 2 minutes
to complete. During the self test the LED will flash indicating it is in self test mode. If everything is connected properly and the batteries are OK the charger’s system check OK indicator will illuminate green and the ProSport will then go into its charge mode indicated by a solid red LED.
If the charger does not go into the charge mode and a red “fault” LED is illuminated then makesure your batteries have a voltage greater than 2 volts DC present and refer to the troubleshooting section on page 25.
5. The multi-stage charging process is complete when only the green LED for the Auto Maintain mode is illuminated and the blue AC power LED remain on indicating that your batteries are fully charged and are being automatically maintained with (Energy Saver Mode) which will monitor batteries and Auto Maintain batteries only when needed to maintain a full state of charge.
6. When you are ready to use your boat, unplug your extension cord at the GFCI outlet first, followed by unplugging the charger.
Again, NO mention of unplugging it except when going fishing.
From the dual pro charger manual:
Once you plug in your PCS battery charging system, your batteries will be simultaneously and independently charged to 100%. Unlike systems that utilize one large charger to attempt to charge multiple batteries, your system utilizes a totally independent battery charger for each battery. Eachcharging bank will remain in a maintenance (“float”) stage once the battery is charged and then monitorand/or maintain the battery indefinitely provided that you leave your system plugged in, which is what we recommend. During the Float stage current will flow to the battery for 5 minutes and then shut off completely for 60 minutes.
Your system provides an equalization stage every 30 days while plugged in. If the charger is normally disconnected from A/C after completing charge, equalization can be accomplished by plugging back into A/C whenever this stage is desired. Battery manufacturers recommend that equalization is done once a month in order to further reduce sulfation on the lead plates of a battery, which helps promote longer battery life. Note: During this process the LEDs will go through their normal routine(Red counting up for % of charge) and the Green Led will blink until the unit returns to the maintenance mode and a steady Green LED. (Not applicable to a Gel Profile)
So Dual Pro says their charger is designed to be plugged in all the time, and will go through an equalization stage every 30 days (overcharge for a bit to bubble the electrolyte and avoid stratification.)
So far, the "academics" have it as the three major charger manufactures say their chargers are designed for long-term use. I would think those are sufficient to convince most that these chargers work as designed. If you don't trust 'em, fine. There are some that don't believe we landed on the moon either. And it doesn't hurt them to have that belief.
Who cares what the main battery reads? It was JUST charged as you run the big motor, so it will have a small surface charge. Alternators and voltage regulators tend to do that.
There is a down-side. The battery will slowly self-discharge, and you get a crystalline sulfate on the plates that will not re-dissolve on charging. You won't get the maintenance cycle where stratification is eliminated. Each time you plug it in, the charger has to charge "cold" with no idea of the state of the battery. It wants to "learn" the battery's tendencies, but it can't. The only potential down-side is if the charger or battery fails while sitting in the basement plugged in. Most have fuses to avoid 99% of the issues. You should ask around to see how many use this simple approach to extend the life of their batteries. We have come a LONG way from the old constant voltage / constant current chargers of the 60's and 70's.
BTW, a sure sign of losing a debate is ad hominem attacks rather than providing real data (produced nothing for society). I'd be more than happy to debate that, considering all the computer science majors I have taught that now work at places like Apple, Microsoft research, IBM, etc. And hardware related inventions that are not really worth mentioning in this topic. Note that I do not use such a tactic, I am simply providing data that supports my argument. You might try actually producing some real data, such as a charger or battery manufacturer that says the modern digital chargers should be unplugged most of the time... I'll be waiting to see that data.
2008 Bass Cat Pantera Classic
2014 Mercury Pro XS 200
You just made my point for me.
People who are able to do something well can do that thing for a living, while people who are not able to do anything that well make a living by teaching.
Time to try the ignore function.
Last edited by zelmo; 09-12-2019 at 09:37 AM.
2006 Triton TR196 w/ 200 Optimax \ 2021 AlumaRyder 1860 w/ 200 Rotax
Yes, although the voltage for a fully charged AGM is higher than a regular flooded battery.
2006 Triton TR196 w/ 200 Optimax \ 2021 AlumaRyder 1860 w/ 200 Rotax
Here's some "typical academic" comments. EXCEPT check the sources I provide:
From Minn Kota manual:
Minn Kota’s Multi-Stage Charging delivers a fast, precise charge profile by automatically controlling current and voltage without overcharging your batteries.
Bulk: During this stage, the charger delivers full current until the battery reaches ~75% charge. A YELLOW LED is lit to indicate the battery is charging in the Bulk Mode.
Absorption: The charging current tapers down while the battery voltage is held at 14.4V (at 77° F). A flashing YELLOW LED indicates the battery is charging in the Absorption Mode.
Maintenance: When the battery reaches full charge, the charger voltage is reduced. A flashing GREEN LED is lit to indicate the battery is in Maintenance Mode and ready to use. After 24 hours, the charger automatically turns off and a steady GREEN LED is lit to indicate the battery is in long term Maintenance Mode and ready to use. The charger will automatically resume charging when the battery voltage drops below 12.6V.
Nothing I see there says to unplug at any time until going fishing. Here is a question from the MK FAQ where MK techs reply:
Will I damage my batteries if I leave the charger plugged in over long periods of non-use (like storage)?
No. Minn Kota's on-board chargers float the battery voltage between 13.2V and 13.5V in the "maintenance" stage (3rd stage). This will allow you to keep your battery charger plugged in for long periods of time without "boiling the battery dry."
Note: It is important to check the electrolyte level approximately every 30 days. Batteries should be filled after charging, and the electrolyte level should be even in all cells and below the fill well in each cell. If the battery plates are exposed before charging, add just enough water to cover the plates. If the battery is overfilled before charging, it may overflow during charging.
This from the Pro Mariner ProSport charger that I am using:
Once your new ProSport is installed and properly connected to batteries you will be ready to plug it in.
3. Connect a heavy duty UL approved extension cord to the ProSport charger first. After connecting the extension cord to the charger, proceed to plug the extension cord to a nearby 120/230 VAC GFCI protected (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupt) outlet.
4. Assuming your batteries are discharged, and your ProSport is factory set (black programming cap installed) for standard Flooded (lead-acid) batteries, you should observe ProSport’s self test mode (flashing red charge mode LED), blue AC power LED turn on, followed by the red battery type LED turning on (red is the factory setting of standard Flooded (lead-acid)/AGM type batteries) and once the green system check OK LED turns on you will notice a solid red charge mode indicator identifying the charging process has started.
Note: The ProSport has built in self testing to insure all batteries are connected correctly. The self test is automatic and will take place everytime the unit is plugged into a 120/230 VAC outlet. The self test may take 2 minutes
to complete. During the self test the LED will flash indicating it is in self test mode. If everything is connected properly and the batteries are OK the charger’s system check OK indicator will illuminate green and the ProSport will then go into its charge mode indicated by a solid red LED.
If the charger does not go into the charge mode and a red “fault” LED is illuminated then makesure your batteries have a voltage greater than 2 volts DC present and refer to the troubleshooting section on page 25.
5. The multi-stage charging process is complete when only the green LED for the Auto Maintain mode is illuminated and the blue AC power LED remain on indicating that your batteries are fully charged and are being automatically maintained with (Energy Saver Mode) which will monitor batteries and Auto Maintain batteries only when needed to maintain a full state of charge.
6. When you are ready to use your boat, unplug your extension cord at the GFCI outlet first, followed by unplugging the charger.
Again, NO mention of unplugging it except when going fishing.
From the dual pro charger manual:
Once you plug in your PCS battery charging system, your batteries will be simultaneously and independently charged to 100%. Unlike systems that utilize one large charger to attempt to charge multiple batteries, your system utilizes a totally independent battery charger for each battery. Eachcharging bank will remain in a maintenance (“float”) stage once the battery is charged and then monitorand/or maintain the battery indefinitely provided that you leave your system plugged in, which is what we recommend. During the Float stage current will flow to the battery for 5 minutes and then shut off completely for 60 minutes.
Your system provides an equalization stage every 30 days while plugged in. If the charger is normally disconnected from A/C after completing charge, equalization can be accomplished by plugging back into A/C whenever this stage is desired. Battery manufacturers recommend that equalization is done once a month in order to further reduce sulfation on the lead plates of a battery, which helps promote longer battery life. Note: During this process the LEDs will go through their normal routine(Red counting up for % of charge) and the Green Led will blink until the unit returns to the maintenance mode and a steady Green LED. (Not applicable to a Gel Profile)
So Dual Pro says their charger is designed to be plugged in all the time, and will go through an equalization stage every 30 days (overcharge for a bit to bubble the electrolyte and avoid stratification.)
So far, the "academics" have it as the three major charger manufactures say their chargers are designed for long-term use. I would think those are sufficient to convince most that these chargers work as designed. If you don't trust 'em, fine. There are some that don't believe we landed on the moon either. And it doesn't hurt them to have that belief.
Who cares what the main battery reads? It was JUST charged as you run the big motor, so it will have a small surface charge. Alternators and voltage regulators tend to do that.
There is a down-side. The battery will slowly self-discharge, and you get a crystalline sulfate on the plates that will not re-dissolve on charging. You won't get the maintenance cycle where stratification is eliminated. Each time you plug it in, the charger has to charge "cold" with no idea of the state of the battery. It wants to "learn" the battery's tendencies, but it can't. The only potential down-side is if the charger or battery fails while sitting in the basement plugged in. Most have fuses to avoid 99% of the issues. You should ask around to see how many use this simple approach to extend the life of their batteries. We have come a LONG way from the old constant voltage / constant current chargers of the 60's and 70's.
BTW, a sure sign of losing a debate is ad hominem attacks rather than providing real data (produced nothing for society). I'd be more than happy to debate that, considering all the computer science majors I have taught that now work at places like Apple, Microsoft research, IBM, etc. And hardware related inventions that are not really worth mentioning in this topic. Note that I do not use such a tactic, I am simply providing data that supports my argument. You might try actually producing some real data, such as a charger or battery manufacturer that says the modern digital chargers should be unplugged most of the time... I'll be waiting to see that data.
You just made MY point. You can't contribute any factual data because there is none, so instead, resort to ad hominem. I'm well-known around the world regarding computer science. Are you well known for ANYTHING? Yet you resort to that silly personal comment.. :) Feel free to ignore what I post. I suspect you ignore anything that somehow opposes your narrow opinion about topics. I prefer to read, study and LEARN.
BTW, ever heard of Dr. John Kirkland? You might look him up. At one point (probably still true today) he had done more heart-lung transplants than anyone in the world, while at the University of Alabama at Birmingham. Oh yes, he was also one of those lazy teachers, particularly after he retired from surgery. That old "those that can't, teach" is pretty universally nonsense. I can give you other names of "those that teach, but can..."
Last edited by OldTimer57; 09-12-2019 at 04:25 PM.
2008 Bass Cat Pantera Classic
2014 Mercury Pro XS 200
Ok guys- time to just agree to disagree. As stated earlier on in the thread there are merits to both positions.
No more name calling or personal insults (don't really care who started it).
Thanks!
Dual Mercury Master Technician- for Mercury Outboards, Mercruiser and Mercury Racing at European Marine in Greenville, SC.
Still consider myself a "Marine Apprentice" after 47 years (learn something new every day).
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