Snelling and hook bending/flexing?

[esdbass]

My biggest issue with the newer Gammie's is a lot of times, the bait holder is too far down the shaft. I am always on the look out for old stock with higher bait holders.

Some people also think that new version hook opens up more than the older version, but even the new version of the Gammy Super heavy cover flipping hook is one of the most flex resistant with smallest wire diameter.

So I guess at this point, it gets back to does snelling even if you have to use a thicker wire diameter hook than one would like produces higher hook to land ratio's when punching heavy cover than tying directly to the eye and being able to use a smaller diameter hook to get easier penetration?

[Poppin' Frog]

Some people also think that new version hook opens up more than the older version, but even the new version of the Gammy Super heavy cover flipping hook is one of the most flex resistant with smallest wire diameter.

So I guess at this point, it gets back to does snelling even if you have to use a thicker wire diameter hook than one would like produces higher hook to land ratio's when punching heavy cover than tying directly to the eye and being able to use a smaller diameter hook to get easier penetration?

1.Yes, snelling produces higher hook up ratios when punching with 1oz and greater weights

2. I would say to someone, If you are using a rod made for punching, heavy braid and a punch hook, thick diameter or not and still aren't getting good penetration on the hookset, then maybe next time you get a bite, let your husband set the hook for you

[esdbass]

OK so do you think it produces greater hook up ratios with less than 1oz? Say 3/4 ? Two of the best flippers in the game, Bobby Lane and Greg Hackney don't snell, Hackney uses a hook so big and thick you could hang a shark from it. That being said, most of the worlds best mat punchers use a snell knot so I always have too but I'm totally frustrated about either bending out hooks on the hookset or not getting as good penetration with thicker hooks.

Regarding my gear and braid being right for the task, I have what most consider state of the art punching gear and I have remarked several times that most punching hooks I frequently bend out so I think "my husband" is is just fine letting me set the hook. If anything, it's my hook set that is the issue about flexing hooks ( It might have too much slack in it? )

1.Yes, snelling produces higher hook up ratios when punching with 1oz and greater weights

2. I would say to someone, If you are using a rod made for punching, heavy braid and a punch hook, thick diameter or not and still aren't getting good penetration on the hookset, then maybe next time you get a bite, let your husband set the hook for you

[Poppin' Frog]

Where are you hearing that Hackney and Lane don't use a Snell knot? Ive been on the boat with Bobby, he uses a Snell. I didn't know about Hackney so I Googled it. Literally the very first search result is an article by Hackney for Scout.com where he says he "always" snells his hooks when flipping. Every big time Florida stick ive ever fished with in the last 15 years used a Snell when punching.

Are you talking about flipping or punching? The rule I've always been told by some of the best mat fisherman in Florida is less than 1 oz, palomar. Over 1oz snell.

When using heavy braid while flipping or punching you never want slack on the hookset. That is the most likely cause of opening a thin wire hook. I honestly have no idea how it would be possible to open a 5/0 Hack Attack on anything less than a bull shark

[Whiteboat]

Are you talking about flipping or punching? The rule I've always been told by some of the best mat fisherman in Florida is less than 1 oz, palomar. 1oz and over use asnell.

This is my standard rule

[Rick2018]

This is my standard rule

Certainly an interesting conversation. But why not use a snell with <1oz? I typically use snell with all pitching/flipping - even with 1/2 oz weights. I thought it would protect the knot??

[esdbass]

Well I was speaking with Bobby Lane on Friday and we were discussing my hook bending out issue when punching and he suggested I make some changes. One of them was to use a double Palomar Knot, some were tackle set up based. Regarding Greg Hackney, if you You Tube his win at MLF Championship at Keanisville or his Louisiana Sportsman video's It's pretty clear right from the get go he's using a double Palomar.

I fully agree, even a 4/0 Hackney hook will not bend out let alone a 6/0 but I'm willing to bet most of you would agree that Snelled that huge 6/0 Hack hook is NOT going to go through a thick Hyacinth mat or super thick Hydrilla mat as easily as a 4/0. It also will not go through as easily Snelled as it would tied to the eye.

I have stated my hook set probably has some slack in it. I'm working getting it out of it but it's not easy to unlearn something like that very quickly.

Where are you hearing that Hackney and Lane don't use a Snell knot? Ive been on the boat with Bobby, he uses a Snell. I didn't know about Hackney so I Googled it. Literally the very first search result is an article by Hackney for Scout.com where he says he "always" snells his hooks when flipping. Every big time Florida stick ive ever fished with in the last 15 years used a Snell when punching.

Are you talking about flipping or punching? The rule I've always been told by some of the best mat fisherman in Florida is less than 1 oz, palomar. Over 1oz snell.

When using heavy braid while flipping or punching you never want slack on the hookset. That is the most likely cause of opening a thin wire hook. I honestly have no idea how it would be possible to open a 5/0 Hack Attack on anything less than a bull shark

[MARK R]

I watched the video. One thing that could be your problem if your doing everything like him is pulling on a pinned fish. often times you can't pull a big fish through the mat. Some times in Florida you'll need to crank the big motor, drive into the mat, and go dig a big fish out. A big fish pegged under a mat with her mouth open WILL NOT come through, you'll just rip the hook out.

[Frogchunker]

I watched the video. One thing that could be your problem if your doing everything like him is pulling on a pinned fish. often times you can't pull a big fish through the mat. Some times in Florida you'll need to crank the big motor, drive into the mat, and go dig a big fish out. A big fish pegged under a mat with her mouth open WILL NOT come through, you'll just rip the hook out.

Yup,or tear a big hole in her,and if she does come free..and jumps with that big tungsten weight she gone

[esdbass]

Mark and Frog ( sorry I don't know your name) I assure you it's NOT from trying to pull out a pinned fish. Even in the thinner mats up here in New England I bend out hooks on the hook set not pinning fish. I know this is getting redundant but I appreciate everyone's input. I spend 10+ days a year fishing in Florida, I'm a mat punching junkie and am fortunate because of my work raising Autism Awareness in the fishing community nation wide to have a bunch of some of the worlds best pro mat fishermen as supporters of my work. I'm always trying to improve things though and you guys in Florida are at the "tip of the spear" for the true harshest mat punching conditions so I enjoy hearing all you guys opinions and feedback.

Can we all agree that regardless of snell or tie direct, the optimum punching hook would have the smallest diameter and yet not ever flex out or at least not flex out that much even on a real big fish on the hookset? I'm looking for that hook that works for "me" something different may work for someone else BUT I'm asking mainly in this thread if the "Snell" and the angle it produces enhances the tendency of a hook to bend out? Obviously Bobby and Greg are two of the worlds best BUT Brandon McMillan, Randall Tharp, JT Kenney, Chad Morganthaller, Ish Monroe and Scott Martin are also some of the worlds best and they ALL snell. I'm fairly certain their basic rod and line set ups are relatively similar?

Yup,or tear a big hole in her,and if she does come free..and jumps with that big tungsten weight she gone

[Frogchunker]

I flip heavy cover 95% of the time year round for many years,I dont fish many Tx’s...so Im not looking for 5 fish,just looking to catch big fish.I’ve tried many rods,hooks,and lines over the years to find what works for me.Everybodys hook sets are different,and think that might be your issue..I dont think theres a perfect hook out there right now..Im always looking just like you.

[MARK R]

I snell all my flipping hooks and use a 7'10 Fitzgerald with 65 Stealth. Old school said crank your drag down as hard as it will go, I don't have mine that tight. Try to get that dropping the rod tip under control, that's a lot easier said than done. A lot of fish will open their mouth when they feel that big weight change position.

You're getting good advice from a lot of Pro's but not all of the best flippers are pros. I think if you ask some of the Florida Pros about some guy named Sean from Gainesville who doesn't tx fish and flips all the time you might be surprised. lol

[bassfish1]

Ed's thread deals with snell knots vs. conventional knots causing flex in a straight shank hook. Here is something to ponder, what if tying a snell knot creates a fulcrum point*. Pulling on a snell knot creates down pressure at the eye resulting in leverage pushing up on the main shaft of the hook. I would think this has to cause some flexing compared to a knot that just pulls straight against the eye. ** "Change of direction of a force" is what happens when you pull on the snell knot.

*A fulcrum is the fixed support or pivot point for a lever, which is a simple machine used to overcome resistance. The lever is a stiff rod or bar, and the location of the fulcrum determines the class of the lever. Levers are useful to increase force, increase speed or** change direction of a force,...

[esdbass]

Thank you for saying just exactly that. There isn't a perfect hook "yet" but our choices certainly have gotten better or at least more diverse. I think the biggest influence has been the rod length increase. When Brandon McMillan set his all time FLW Tour 4 day record weight on The Big O he was using a Loomis 7' 5" rod, the next year when Tharp won he was using a 7' 6" Loomis Rod. They both were using the Paycheck hook. None of that is state of the art punching gear now.

I flip heavy cover 95% of the time year round for many years,I dont fish many Tx’s...so Im not looking for 5 fish,just looking to catch big fish.I’ve tried many rods,hooks,and lines over the years to find what works for me.Everybodys hook sets are different,and think that might be your issue..I dont think theres a perfect hook out there right now..Im always looking just like you.

[esdbass]

Now that is the aspect I'm trying to focus on here! You said it a lot better than I but I'm thinking that if one tried to physically open up a hook you would take a needle nose and grab it somewhere in between the bend and the barb area and bend it open? I know that is how I would. Well when that hook pivots in the fishes mouth with the snell that hook goes horizontal and the point is not being driven into the fishes mouth at an angle nearly as straight as if you tied the hook by the eye. I'm suggesting if you tie the hook at the eye vs snelling it it's less likely to open up on the hook set do to the more in line pulling force.

Ed's thread deals with snell knots vs. conventional knots causing flex in a straight shank hook. Here is something to ponder, what if tying a snell knot creates a fulcrum point*. Pulling on a snell knot creates down pressure at the eye resulting in leverage pushing up on the main shaft of the hook. I would think this has to cause some flexing compared to a knot that just pulls straight against the eye. ** "Change of direction of a force" is what happens when you pull on the snell knot.

*A fulcrum is the fixed support or pivot point for a lever, which is a simple machine used to overcome resistance. The lever is a stiff rod or bar, and the location of the fulcrum determines the class of the lever. Levers are useful to increase force, increase speed or** change direction of a force,...

[Whiteboat]

Certainly an interesting conversation. But why not use a snell with <1oz? I typically use snell with all pitching/flipping - even with 1/2 oz weights. I thought it would protect the knot??

The primary reason in using the snell is to offset the impact of that big weight popping the fish's mouths open on the set. The down side of the snell is that your bait will "kick out" to the side once the big weight starts wearing on the soft plastic as it is punched - resulting in an unnatural drop presentation. This damage to the plastic can be partially offset by putting a small bead between the weight and plastic. The bead reduces the displacement footprint of the weight against the head of the plastic. The bead trick has eliminated 80% of my frustration with the snell.

With weights 3/4 oz. and less, I have found that can I get a good hookset without the aggravation of the snell. The bait stays straighter. If I start missing fish with a 3/4 oz. weight, I may snell the hook but that is a day by day assessment and is very rare.

[Rick2018]

The primary reason in using the snell is to offset the impact of that big weight popping the fish's mouths open on the set. The down side of the snell is that your bait will "kick out" to the side once the big weight starts wearing on the soft plastic as it is punched - resulting in an unnatural drop presentation. This damage to the plastic can be partially offset by putting a small bead between the weight and plastic. The bead reduces the displacement footprint of the weight against the head of the plastic. The bead trick has eliminated 80% of my frustration with the snell.

With weights 3/4 oz. and less, I have found that can I get a good hookset without the aggravation of the snell. The bait stays straighter. If I start missing fish with a 3/4 oz. weight, I may snell the hook but that is a day by day assessment and is very rare.

Thanks for the detailed response and great points.

[SwampNinja]

I personally don't think it matters which knot it is. If your applying enough force to flex out a gammy or hack it would have with the other knot anyways.

[esdbass]

I personally don't think it matters which knot it is. If your applying enough force to flex out a gammy or hack it would have with the other knot anyways.

Not the Gammy Super Heavy cover 4/0, Not any Hackney hook, and not a Mustad 3X 4/0. I'm pretty convinced after messing around with not snelling a few hooks that bend out when snelled, that tying to the eye reduces the potential for hooks to bend out. That said, for now I still think the snell knot is the best knot to use in punching a heavy weight. The tempering of the steel in the hook is a big factor in a hook's resistance to bend out but too much tempering can make it brittle and they will break, too little tempering and they bend more easily.